Grammar and MN users.

[coffeeandbiscuittime]

I started browsing Mumsnet whilst completing my Master's degree. I have always been concerned about whether my English grammar/language/pronunciation is correct. I am English - north-west so I have an accent, also had a lisp as a child, always got the picked on for this, believed I was rubbish at English, so achieving the Master's is a big deal for me.
There are really interesting debates on important topics on Mumsnet but I find the nastiness of people pulling posters up on grammar really offensive.
We need to accept that Mumsnet is an open forum for people of all walks of life, with different cultures, backgrounds and for some English as a second language. To continue to pick up on posters grammar means that some people will stop posting. This then reduces the variety of opinions and debate then becomes very narrow.
I am ashamed of my fellow Mumsnetters, please accept that not everyone has had the same education/interest in grammar as you, but their opinions are still valid.

@HepzibahGreen

It is not at all "classist" to prefer good grammar. I know mine is not perfect, but my Dad was very working class and had excellent grammar. In fact most older people I know write with perfect grammar and a good vocabulary, even if they have a thick accent or very little education. It is very arrogant to assume that a post written in good English is by a middle class Londoner! I think bad grammar is really down to younger people no longer reading books! I read constantly as a child and sort of absorbed decent-ish grammar and spelling, but the youngsters only seem to read stuff on the internet, much of which is itself poorly written

I think you need to look up classism. Or perhaps you would feel more comfortable with it being decried as elitism?

Your dad may have had excellent grammar. However people from working class backgrounds and marginalised communities are more like to have grammar which deviates from the norm. If you then judge 'poor' grammar negatively you are actually being prejudiced against these people. Also it is the middle and upper class who get to decide what the norm or 'proper' grammar is.

The funny thing though OP is that most of the errors are not the type made by foreigners. They are made by natives speakers, you can tell by the kind of mistakes they are - should of/could of/effect/affect etc borne out of slang or street talking.

There are some utterly pompous posts on this thread. Nobody has the right to 'pull up' other posters for SPaG; and if you think that they deserve opprobrium for other reasons then do it within guidelines or risk getting an 'Ahem' from MNHQ.

Why do some posters feel such a sense of superiority towards others to the extent that they themselves feel obliged and/or entitled to mete out correction? If you can't understand a post then move on, nobody is 'missed' because they didn't post. How arrogant to think that anybody's views are essential on a chatboard.

I'm glad that most don't agree with those advocating correcting SPaG here.

Well in my work I'm good but on here it's a combo of fat fingers, crap eyesight, phone keyboard and autocorrect

Although that wouldn't cause me to should of could of.

So I wouldn't criticise people on here, I just scroll on by

However OP with regard to your point on accent, unless one is a robot, then everyone has an accent

Hi @LyingWitchInTheWardrobe, I've namechanged but you and I are often found on these threads!

I also agree that it tends to be those with a higher opinion of their own SPaG than the reality of their posts suggests who criticise others.
I think it's safe to say, in all these years, I've yet to see a poster rolling their eyes at "should of" who hasn't made a mistake themselves. Or, who insists something is wrong when it isn't.

TheSeedsOfADream, I'm wondering who you are but I'm very happy to see you on these threads.

There are too many posters who really seem to get off on pulling others down about their spelling and grammar. I'm fed up of hearing of their being 'in despair' over such gross infractions as 'would of'. Bless their delicate little sensibilities and desire to be monitor... I hear there are to be 'Covid Marshalls'. No self-respecting traffic warden would want the job but, MN could be rich pickings for recruitment...

Agree with that, Seeds, I think some of the posts on this (and the other myriad threads) have been carefully constructed with as many 'big words' for maximum verbosity. Makes me laugh every time - quickly followed by embarrassment for them.

...says the poster who just used 'opprobrium.'

That's only ONE biggish word, ZoeTurtle and I've been waiting ages to use it...

Even my severely autistic son has good grammar and punctuation. Why is it so hard?
I don’t even read posts that are poorly written. I just skip to the next one. Yes I’m probably a bitch

I don’t think it’s bitchy to skip poorly written posts but it’s strange that you are unable to understand why some people find grammar and punctuation difficult. My written English is poor but I’m a whizz at all sorts of other things. In fact, I bet there are plenty of things I can do that you can’t. 👻 👻👻👻

I think you need to look up classism. Or perhaps you would feel more comfortable with it being decried as elitism?
Your dad may have had excellent grammar. However people from working class backgrounds and marginalised communities are more like to have grammar which deviates from the norm. If you then judge 'poor' grammar negatively you are actually being prejudiced against these people. Also it is the middle and upper class who get to decide what the norm or 'proper' grammar is.

I think you need to look up your arse and find your head..
Everything you wrote was nonsense! I know a ton of people who are working class and even "marginalised" people, and the the ones who have read the odd book have good grammar regardless.
The point of grammar is that language makes sense, and we can understand each other. It's nothing to do with class. And I'm not prejudiced against "these people"I wouldn't pull anyone up over bad spelling etc, but it does grate on me sometimes.
I find it very very patronising to assume that people who use language properly must be middle or upper class. Those people do not own the English language.

It's a good word Lying!

@viciousjackdaw, precisely.

I know of someone - not a crusty old pedant! - an HR senior - who said that all too often the only way to weed out a mass of very similar job applications/CVs was to bin any with basic SPAG errors.
And these were common, even in applications from graduates.

I would always hesitate ever to correct anyone online (have done it just once as per my pp, correcting a corrector who had frankly asked for it) but how are people to know, if nobody ever tells them?

IMO too many people like to think these things don’t matter any more, nobody cares - but they do! And if poor SPAG is going to affect anyone’s chances of a job....

The pity of it is that so many basic mistakes are very simple to explain. But IMO a lot of people are under the impression that there’s some great mystique to (e.g.) where to put an apostrophe, and since they’re never going to understand it, they won’t bother trying.

That is, even if they’re aware that they’re making these mistakes, which I suspect many aren’t. If that’s the case, they go on making them, blithely unaware.

I think it's reasonable to use grammar and spelling errors as a filter for CVs. Not because I think anyone who makes such an error is incapable of doing the job, but just think you should make an effort with a job application if the job matters to you: get someone to proofread it, use a spellchecker etc.

If you type "your" instead of "you're" in a forum like this, I don't think you are stupid or lazy - I've made the same error occasionally, and don't greatly care in this context if you're meening is clearr!

I bin CVs with poor SPaG too.
I don't point out people's poor SPaG on a mammy forum.
Unless those are the ones pearl-clutching about other people. Then it's open season and Muphry has my back.

I would always hesitate ever to correct anyone online (have done it just once as per my pp, correcting a corrector who had frankly asked for it) but how are people to know, if nobody ever tells them?

I don't correct either, but you're absolutely right. The thing is, you used to be able to assume that people would absorb correct grammar and spelling, even if they'd had a poor education (like mine I was never taught grammar at all, for instance, and my parents were only semi-literate, and very young school leavers from poor backgrounds) from newspapers and books, but it's pretty clear that nowadays, some people do all of their reading online, rely on social media and chat forums for their information, and read if they read at all -- free or very cheap self-published, often unproofread books. So they copy what they see, understandably. They think 'definitely' is spelled' 'defiantly', that you 'loose weight', that 'I could of went to the shops yesterday' is a correct construction, because they see it everywhere.

@ImaSababa

To be honest, if you would stop posting because someone pulls you up on your grammar, you're not cut out for MN!

I’m sad at this attitude though not entirely surprised.

I hate corrections. I hope MN is a place for everyone and people don’t feel intimidated enough to leave the site if for whatever reason they don’t use correct (generally British) English Spag. I just think it make MN less diverse, less supportive and less interesting.

Exceptions yes if poster is asking about cv/draft, Spag is genuinely confusing not just annoying, on some threads in AIBU or they have already corrected someone else.

Lying - it is not correct to say no one has the right to pull someone up on their spelling. They do have a right to do so as we have freedom of speech. That is one reason words matter so much. However you can certainly say it is wrong morally to point out mistakes. As I said above I do not even mention when CVs are littered with errors and even if it would help that young lawyer get a job as why upset them? However my stance is perhaps very cruel.

I've been a victim... Of this myself op.
I was posting about my dd education, because I'm terrified she will fall behind again.
I've struggled massively over lock down, with poor grammar skills myself to teach her the basics. I've been wildly out of my comfort zone our school was one of the ones who provided nothing over lock down!
I've been fumbling around in the dark and a poster rudely commented on my grammar!

I think I was probably on your thread Splendid.

@Splendidseptember

I've been a victim... Of this myself op. I was posting about my dd education, because I'm terrified she will fall behind again. I've struggled massively over lock down, with poor grammar skills myself to teach her the basics. I've been wildly out of my comfort zone our school was one of the ones who provided nothing over lock down! I've been fumbling around in the dark and a poster rudely commented on my grammar!

This is a good example. I do not agree with people that are asking for help being attacked because of their poor grammar. That's in very poor taste. If a poster is attacking others/being disparaging about other people's choices etc then I still think it's fair.