What can you do about parents who won't vaccinate

[mirandatempest]

I've discovered that three of my friends have not vaccinated their children. I am normally very live and let live but this has really upset and bothered me. I've challenged them all but very gently as I
am useless at confrontation but can these friendships survive? I feel so angry.

Also medication sensitivity is a known issue in autistic people. So it’s quite possible that autistic people react badly to vaccines more than neurotypicals

And yet there is a wealth of evidence showing no link between vaccines and autusm?

Evidence? We don' need no steenkin' evidence....

(It's a take on a quote.)

I want a definition of "neurotypical" before I start assuming they are all the same.

Neurotypical:

adjective

1. relating to or showing typical neurological behavior and development

1. a neurotypical person

**Yes, as a previously "delayed vaxxer" who now has paid to get additional vaccines privately for my kids, and also works with journals regularly, I have read quite a bit of the literature on it. Here 's one such article from 5 years ago that discusses the benefits and risks of components in recent vaccines pretty clearly, I think. Anything reputable on it will discuss the risks, but having risks doesn't make something not generally safe. Safe is always relative, even the 'stay at home' which is generally perceived as very safe has the risks in some to increase Vitamin D deficiencies, deconditioning health risks, and certain types of injuries before getting to interpersonal risks.

Also, please be aware that "non-fiction" books are very unlikely to be fact-checked by anyone but the author unless the author pays for it out of pocket themselves. The industry puts the entire liability for on the authors are rarely pays out for anything beyond basic copywriting consistency. It's an issue that has bit some authors in the butt and others have fought for better. We also have an issue with replication crisis in peer-reviewed journals across disciplines so that's always something to double check.

Speaking of, while I can believe general medical time on this is low - it seems like a specialty topic - I'm struggling to find a reputable source on pharma reps teaching courses at reputable medical schools (though actual pharma reps generally need specialty degrees themselves).**

Isn’t this always the case with arguing the ani-vaxx issue? It’s put in the same category as conspiracy theories and if you question vaccines you’re told you must be getting all of your information from cults who are spreading misinformation, you’re uneducated and have only gained information from google and crazy anti-vaxx groups. When in actual fact most making the decision not to vaccinate have done their own extensive research into vaccines and the side effects but they are still told regardless of the books they’ve read research papers and studies they’ve looked into that they're still misinformed and not to trust what researched. “Read a book, but wait not that book” “There is no danger in vaccines, you pull up documented studies that prove otherwise, oh wait not that study” “Doctors claim vaccines are safe, you find a doctor who states otherwise, oh wait not that doctor”

Well, not the one who was struck off because of his unethical treatments and falsification of research results, anyway.

I would rather tend to go with ten other people involved in that research paper who had a good long look at it and then said "oops" and asked for it to be withdrawn -- after he had called in the press and told them what they ought to put in their articles about it.

He was and is a charlatan.

Exactly my point above 🙄 Yet many doctors have spoken out about vaccines and risked their career and reputation in doing so. All for what I have to ask?

What exactly do they gain from speaking out?

Money from anti-vaxxers and alternative medicine types who will buy their book/subscribe to their YouTube channel/pay for treatment at their private clinic because it's the only one they consider to be safe, not to mention research money from anti-vaxx organisations desperately trying to prove that vaccines are bad. People who whine about "Big Pharma" being all about the money seem to forget that alternative 'medicine' is also a billion-dollar industry.

Funny story about anti-vaxx research desperately trying to prove vaccines are bad: SafeMinds, an anti-vaxx group, once funded research it hoped would prove vaccines cause autism. The research massively backfired when the results showed the hoped for link between autism and vaccines does not exist.

The overwhelming evidence from reliable scientific sources is that vaccines are very safe, they do not cause autism, and they save lives.

@saltandpepper7

First of all I didn’t state that vaccines cause these chronic illnesses, I stated that the general population is sicker than ever to which I was told I was wrong?! I stated facts to prove that we are and just like everyone else on this thread who questions the narrative I’m still told I’m wrong.

Autism is not a sickness, it's a neurodevelopmental condition. Autism itself does not affect overall physical health.

“Autistic individuals are more likely to have chronic physical health conditions, particularly heart, lung, and diabetic conditions, according to a new study by researchers at the University of Cambridge. The results are published in the journal Autism.“
medicalxpress.com/news/2020-09-autistic-adults-higher-physical-health.html

Don’t speak on topics you’ve never researched yourself or experienced.

It is also not caused by vaccines or modern lifestyles.

Have you ever taken the time to research or read any (and I mean any) literature or studies on the causes of autism?

I can guarantee anyone who believes vaccines are safe and effective either hasn’t taken the time to read or research anything for themselves or decided after a quick google search that of course you can never disagree with the NHS and WHO stating that vaccines are safe. And no I’m not stating that the medical establishment is evil and trying to poison our children but it is true that the only training medical professions are given on vaccines is from the pharmaceutical companies themselves who have a huge annual multi billion profit from the vaccine schedule. You do realise that doctors and medical professions in their 5 years of studies and training take on 18 hours, yes 18 hours of training in vaccines and immunology? And from those 18 hours they are taught only by the pharmaceutical reps themselves? Has anyone who believes they are safe actually read any literature, studies, medical journals, peer reviewed studies to suggest otherwise? I already know the answer to this but would love to hear it from the horses mouth.

I’ve linked some books just in case anyone reading this is actually interested in educating themselves on vaccines.

I feel the need to correct these statements for other people reading your comments, as I actually went to medical school.

18 hours is a very specific figure that you seem to have produced, I'm not sure from where? It's a fabrication. Many more hours than this are spent in lectures and private study of immunology and pharmacology during and after medical school. I have a legal duty (which I take seriously) as a prescriber to understand the what I'm doing and I've sat exams on immunology and pharmacology. Our lectures are taught by professors and senior clinicians, not pharmaceutical reps. My first hand experience as somebody who actually went to medical school is directly at odds with your misinformation. It makes me wonder whether source validity / the truth has any importance to you? Your comments are offensive and false. They're lies - are you repeating them or did you make them up yourself?

As well as studying the immunisation schedule, and pharmacology a key area of study at medical school (and beyond) is learning how to critically appraise evidence (including a working understanding of medical statistics). Have you ever written up and submitted a literature review? All doctors have. Have you been to journal club (do you know what journal club is?) because most doctors go to journal club roughly once per week to once a month for the duration of their careers. Do you know how to use PubMed? Have you got any publications? Completed an audit cycle? Passed a postgraduate exam in medical statistics?

In essence, I can't know your beliefs or intentions but I do know that you're happy to repeat or fabricate statements that aren't true when they fit your agenda. I hope that other people are able to make this observation too.

It is actually pretty important to consider this topic (and the degree of qualification and certainty you actually possess) seriously. The movement against immunisations has been identified among the top 10 global health risks by the World Health Organisation, because it is predicted it will kill people. Mainly children. Like the 10s of thousands who already die of measles globally each year. If you think WHO don't know anything, then consider one of their main concerns in 2019 was emerging pandemics. If you think they don't do anything, how about eradicating smallpox.

When you share a book written by a layperson, that hasn't been submitted to peer review, as evidence; and you decide you know better than doctors and epidemiologists, or your repeat something you have obviously made no effort to fact check - are you thinking "if I'm wrong about this, I might be a part of something that's going to put children in their graves". Because you really should. This issue is actually bigger than your hobby.

@OrangeJoos

decided they are happier with the risk of disease

Yeah, the risk to who? Themselves or that poor immunocompromised child who actually can't be vaccinated.

The thing that really gets me annoyed with anti-vaxxers is that they don't seem to get that they are literally relying on other people doing the thing they refuse to do in order to keep their children safe. If everyone took their stance, well we'd be pretty screwed wouldn't we. The only reason it's even possible most of the time for someone to weigh up and be 'happier with the risk of disease' is because other people are mostly vaccinated against it making your child's chance of contracting it lower.

Exactly this - the anti-vaxxers would be stuffed if everyone followed their stance.

@Gancanny, in terms of vaccines causing autism yes...there is little to no evidence that the converse might be true. My children display medication sensitivity to many things over the years, for instance my daughter is also asthmatic, the first time she was given steroids she had to be subsequently sedated because she was so hyper on them, they since give her a much lower dose. My son also suffers from narcolepsy, melatonin at the dose most children his age take knocked him out cold for 18 hours.
I’m not saying it’s a definite, but it’s a theory that their specialist is interested in. There are many things we don’t know about ASD and how it affects people.

Autism is not a sickness, it's a neurodevelopmental condition. Autism itself does not affect overall physical health

There are dozens of known comorbidities with autism that absolutely do affect physical health.

@sunnysideover

What exactly do they gain from speaking out?

Money.

Doctors Are Selling Vaccine Exemptions in California. The State Is Coming for Them.

Here's an excerpt:

California made it illegal to obtain exemptions for nonmedical purposes, like religious, personal, or philosophical beliefs, in 2015, after more than 100 people near Disneyland contracted measles.

But the state is only one of a handful to outlaw exemptions except those for medical reasons, and parents are paying doctors and surgeons for ways around the ban. The rates of medical exemptions in California rose by 250% from 2015 to 2017, partly due to parents “doctor shopping,” according to a 2018 study from the American Academy of Pediatrics.

One San Diego doctor, who’s responsible for one-third of all medical exemptions in the state, charges $180 per appointment. Parents have even started sharing lists of doctors with reputations of issuing medical exemptions for money on Facebook.

“What they’re doing is they are putting children in harm's way for their personal and financial gain,” said Peter Hotez, dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston and co-director of the Texas Children’s Hospital Center for Vaccine Development.

And the ones who seem to be making a full time career of peddling this rubbish I suspect no longer have the option of practicing medicine, either through licensing restrictions or the inability to obtain malpractice insurance, which makes them unemployable.

But if you ban kids that aren't vaccinated from school, you're punishing the blameless kid rather than the ignorant adult?

Not that I have a better answer. I don't know what the best move forward is.

I think the child's right to an education matters.

So I wouldn't make it a condition of schooling

I would follow the Aussie method and make some state benefits unavailable to,DC who were not either vaccinated or signed off as exempt for some/all by the GP. New arrivals to the country who were following a 'catch up' plan endorsed by a doctor would count as vaccinated

in terms of vaccines causing autism yes...there is little to no evidence that the converse might be true.

No evidence, as in none.

There are dozens of known comorbidities with autism that absolutely do affect physical health

I'm aware of comorbidities but what I said was that autism itself (i.e., autism alone) does not affect overall physical health.

There are many things we don’t know about ASD and how it affects people.

I agree that research into autism is ongoing however one thing we do know is that it is not caused pr triggered by vaccines.

"in terms of vaccines causing autism yes...there is little to no evidence that the converse might be true."

I find this difficult to understand: what is the opposite of what in that sentence? I can't think that you really meant to say there is little or no evidence that autism causes vaccines.