What can you do about parents who won't vaccinate

[mirandatempest]

I've discovered that three of my friends have not vaccinated their children. I am normally very live and let live but this has really upset and bothered me. I've challenged them all but very gently as I
am useless at confrontation but can these friendships survive? I feel so angry.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

A far better argument, which I advise you not to give her, is that when the average number of children one woman had was six, if three of them hadn't died the population would be completely out of control and we would all by dying of either starvation or war over food....

Seriously: the greater percentage mortality probably has far more to do with sheer numbers than anything else. That does tend to work against "vaccinations are a good thing", I suppose -- though not if it were three children of mine!

I won't be able to share any arguments with her because I'll be doing my level best to avoid her completely. I'm so incredibly sick of the stupidity.

Crikey OP get a grip

You don’t see anyone stating that vaccines cause autism and any conditions related though do you? They say they are linked, that’s the difference. The theory is if you have a genetic predisposition to autism for example then the sheer number of vaccines given today, given their ingredients and their nature of creating a huge immune response at such a young age this is where they see the problem. There is no way to tell if your child could have a genetic predisposition unless of course you already have children with say autism or it runs in your family so for them the risks outweigh the risks of vaccinating.

By nature we are made up of 90% bacteria and viruses so I don’t think anyone is trying to outsmart nature as technically we are nature and the theory is adding toxins like some of the heavy metals in the vaccines does more harm than good to some people. Given that vaccine damage is well documented and we are a world sicker than ever I wouldn’t hold it against anyone who doesn’t vaccinate. Those who are extremely pro vaccine will always discredit anyone who believes otherwise and vice versa but there is actually a wealth of research and studies that isn’t done by pharmaceutical companies that really can make you question the safety but they will always discredit this also.

"immune systems probably weren't as strong back then as they are now"

That only half of children died probably means the immune systems of the ones who didn't die were actually stronger than ours! Ours don't have to deal with all the diseases that theirs did, and if we suddenly did have to we'd be scuppered. Also, we have antibiotics to help shore up our defences against things like tonsillitis (haemololitic streptococcus, I think) and all the other various bacteria, which makes a considerable difference to how well we are able to repel the bacteria which might otherwise cause serious illnesses and death.

(Now can we all stop dosing all our livestock whether they need them or not with antibiotics which are the thing standing between the human race and everyone who gets sepsis dying of it? They are losing their efficacy at a shocking rate because of this foolish misuse.)

"we are a world sicker than ever"

Except that on the whole and taking one thing with another, we aren't.

How many children you know have died recently of a preventable-with-a-vaccine disease? Even in places where many children do die of eg measles, fewer do so every year except if there is a war which prevents the vaccination programme against it from being carried out.

In the developed world we are fatter and less fit, on average, than we were before we had all the food we wanted whenever we wanted it and barely walked anywhere, but that has nothing to do with vaccines.

The theory is if you have a genetic predisposition to autism for example then the sheer number of vaccines given today, given their ingredients and their nature of creating a huge immune response at such a young age this is where they see the problem.

Its is a "theory" that has been extensively investigated and investigations have concluded there is NO link between vaccines and autism, regardless of so-called "genetic predisposition".

Not to be rude, but this "theory" is pure shite and contributes to spreading fear amongst the vaccine hesitant.

Once more, in bold, VACCINES DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM. THEY DO NOT INCREASE YOUR RISK OF DEVELOPING AUTISM. YOU CANNOT "ACTIVATE," AUTISM GENES VIA THE END OF A SYRINGE

That really does smack to me of last-ditchery: having failed to show any causality whatsoever between the MMR and autism (or Crohn's disease or a previously and subsequently unknown form of enterocolitis which was invented for the purpose) people who don't want to admit they were wrong go on to claim that even if there is no causality to be found, there must be some sort of unspecifiable causal link...

The sheer amount of palm oil consumed today per head might equally trigger a genetic predisposition to autism; or the sheer amount of time spent without the presence of a parent; or the sheer amount of gaseous fumes from motor vehicles; or the sheer amount of radiation present in the world today as compared with what was present in 1900. Vaccines are not the only thing that is a new development since 1950, and unlike the others I have mentioned they are at least in general benign rather than clearly not being so.

'we are a world sicker than ever'

No, in general, we are not. It is true that RIGHT NOW we have a serious health crisis with a pandemic of a dangerous virus. But overall, health is much better in most places than in the past.

In 1800, the global average life expectancy was well under 40. In 1950 it was 48. According to the most recent figures, it was 72.

Adults now have a better chance of reaching old age than they did in the past; but the biggest change - and the one most influenced by vaccinations- has been in infant and childhood mortality. It is estimated that 43% of those born in 1800 did not live to grow up. By 1950, it was about 22%. According to the most recent figures it was 4%.

These figures of course include all countries, including very poor countries and those involved in wars. In the UK specifically, the childhood mortality rate is about 0.4%.

We are not 'sicker than ever'.

I doubt you’ll see many anti-vaxx parents who formula feed (not that there’s anything from with formula feeding but this is the thought process to naturally build up the immune system) and eat Mc Donald’s, junk food so it’s hardly irresponsible parenting

You might think it's "responsible parenting" of your own children, but you are making irresponsible decisions for other children, not your own.

It's the same selfishness that underlies those who drive big 4-wheel drives (Chelsea tractors). "Oh, they're safer for driving my children."

Well, yes, your children might be safer inside such a vehicle, but if you look at the stats for children's injuries and deaths as pedestrians, those big 4 wheel drives are lethal for other people's children.

And if you want to be a smug eco-conscious person, if you live in the industrialised West, you should make the ethical choice not to have children at all, as each child born in the West takes u 4 times the resources of any other child born elsewhere in the world.

I doubt you’ll see many anti-vaxx parents who formula feed (not that there’s anything from with formula feeding but this is the thought process to naturally build up the immune system) and eat Mc Donald’s, junk food so it’s hardly irresponsible parenting

This makes me smile. Someone I know suddenly became a raging anti-vax promoter whilst feeding her baby nothing but pre made aptamil and later pizzas. She has now joined the 'cults' for every conspiracy theory which seems to exist. For many it's not about the cause (ant vax in this case) it's about jumping on a bandwagon!

It's irresponsible parenting. No ifs no buts. Only caveat is where there is a genuine actual Uk registered doctor reason for not doing it.

This article on talking to people you disagree with reminded me of this thread.

When you are old and very much aware that you have only limited time left to you, your patience with fools tends to decrease, and the amount of time you are prepared to spend pandering to them becomes more limited.

We are not 'sicker than ever'.

In terms on chronic illnesses please repeat that again...
3.9 million / 1 in 16 people in the UK have diabetes
7.4 million people in the UK alone are living with heart disease
360,000 people are year are diagnosed with cancer and 160,000 people die a year from cancer in the UK
2.8 million children are living with autism
10 million people have arthritis or similar conditions in the UK
1 in 11 - 11 million children are asthmatic
300,000 people in the UK have Crohn's disease
1 in 100 people have epilepsy, over 500,000 people in the UK.

2.8 million children are living with autism

Autism is not a sickness, it's a neurodevelopmental condition. Autism itself does not affect overall physical health. It is also not caused by vaccines or modern lifestyles.

All the other conditions in your list are not new things either and the case numbers for all of them can be attributed to lifestyle factors, an aging population/people living longer, genetic factors, wider diagnosis and understanding of broader symptoms.

They're not due to vaccines.

Vaccines do not give you cancer, diabetes, epilepsy, autism, arthritis, heart disease, etc.

Do you have any arguments based in fact?

@Gancanny what articles do you have that prove modern lifestyles isn’t a contributing factor to autism and that is why it’s on the rise ?

When childhood vaccinations first came out, people remembered how bad the diseases were, there was not of this "my child can't have it because" crap that we have today.
Either have them done or not, but those who choose not to are no worse than if medical choice or personal.
The result is still the same, both not vaccinated and prone to spreading or catching the diseases.

I recommend you look at The National Autistic Society who have many articles on their website.

The rise in diagnosis of autism is down to several factors. More infants survive now and volume of numbers means that more of those children will potentially be autistic. Better diagnostic criteria and increased understanding and recognition of the impairments involved with autism mean that it is more likely to be recognised and diagnosed, it is not uncommon when a child is going through the diagnosis process for one or both parents to recognise themselves in the assessments and realise that they may also be autistic but just weren't diagnosed as it wasn't picked up in childhood. Genetics play a huge role and thanks to more acceptance of neurodevelopmental differences and the opportunities afforded by in internet, more autistic people have children now - of the autistic adults I know, most of them are married to/living with another autistic adult (note: we don't have full acceptance yet, we still have a long way to go on that front but it is better than it was). Visibility plays a part too and inclusion, in the past only the most severe of cases would have been diagnosed (and until 1943 there wasn't even a name for it), families were encouraged to institutionalise their child, those not put into a residential facility would go to special school or be home schooled because the couldn't go to mainstream.

There is no one answer. I can tell you though that the rise is not down to screen time, chemtrails, junk food, lack of boundaries, lack of discipline, or vaccines.

'3.9 million / 1 in 16 people in the UK have diabetes
7.4 million people in the UK alone are living with heart disease
360,000 people are year are diagnosed with cancer and 160,000 people die a year from cancer in the UK
2.8 million children are living with autism
10 million people have arthritis or similar conditions in the UK
1 in 11 - 11 million children are asthmatic
300,000 people in the UK have Crohn's disease
1 in 100 people have epilepsy, over 500,000 people in the UK.'

Apart from diabetes, which is to some degree related to lifestyle factors (only in the case of Type 2), most of these are diagnosed more frequently because doctors are aware of them AND are chronic illnesses because they are less likely than in the past to kill you outright (100 years ago, if you had Type 1 diabetes you didn't live very long; same for congenital heart disease; often same for severe asthma).

I have Crohns. I had all the symptoms since I was 5. It wasn't diagnosed till I was 16 - because the medical profession didn't realize that children could have it and didn't test me for it. A lot of other conditions were similarly underdiagnosed: children were seen as either nonspecifically 'delicate' or they or their parents were thought to be imagining the whole thing.

And some of these conditions are associated with old age, which more people reach. People can get heart disease at any age (though one formerly common cause among young people, rheumatic fever, has been largely abolished in developed countries); but is much commoner in late middle age and old age than in younger people. Even so, the frequency of heart disease has decreased significantly in the last 50 years because of better treatment and prevention of risk factors; it is also oftem more treatable, and less likely to cause immediate death, than in the past. The frequency of cancer has increased - because it's commoner in the very elderly, and if you don't die in infancy or childhood from infections, as people often did 100 years ago, or of heart disease in your 60s, as people often did 50 years ago, you are more likely to reach the age when cancer is commonest. (I note that your list doesn't include dementia, which is certainly much commoner in the past - because of increased life expectancy.)

@Devlesko

When childhood vaccinations first came out, people remembered how bad the diseases were, there was not of this "my child can't have it because" crap that we have today. Either have them done or not, but those who choose not to are no worse than if medical choice or personal. The result is still the same, both not vaccinated and prone to spreading or catching the diseases.

Do you really not see a difference between people who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons and who choose not to?

@Gancanny

I recommend you look at The National Autistic Society who have many articles on their website.

The rise in diagnosis of autism is down to several factors. More infants survive now and volume of numbers means that more of those children will potentially be autistic. Better diagnostic criteria and increased understanding and recognition of the impairments involved with autism mean that it is more likely to be recognised and diagnosed, it is not uncommon when a child is going through the diagnosis process for one or both parents to recognise themselves in the assessments and realise that they may also be autistic but just weren't diagnosed as it wasn't picked up in childhood. Genetics play a huge role and thanks to more acceptance of neurodevelopmental differences and the opportunities afforded by in internet, more autistic people have children now - of the autistic adults I know, most of them are married to/living with another autistic adult (note: we don't have full acceptance yet, we still have a long way to go on that front but it is better than it was). Visibility plays a part too and inclusion, in the past only the most severe of cases would have been diagnosed (and until 1943 there wasn't even a name for it), families were encouraged to institutionalise their child, those not put into a residential facility would go to special school or be home schooled because the couldn't go to mainstream.

There is no one answer. I can tell you though that the rise is not down to screen time, chemtrails, junk food, lack of boundaries, lack of discipline, or vaccines.

My son has severe autism. No one in the family is autistic in the slightest on either side of the family. Genetics don’t play into it for my son.

I defiantly don’t think it’s chemtrails or Junk Food etc that causes autism.

I just couldn't continue to socialise with them.

Come on it's a bit stupid to argue that people should vaccinate their children for the benefit of others. People vaccinate their children for the benefit of that child and not for some altruistic reason.
I wish parents did care about other people's children - if so they would all stop idling their engines outside school!

First of all I didn’t state that vaccines cause these chronic illnesses, I stated that the general population is sicker than ever to which I was told I was wrong?! I stated facts to prove that we are and just like everyone else on this thread who questions the narrative I’m still told I’m wrong.

Autism is not a sickness, it's a neurodevelopmental condition. Autism itself does not affect overall physical health.

“Autistic individuals are more likely to have chronic physical health conditions, particularly heart, lung, and diabetic conditions, according to a new study by researchers at the University of Cambridge. The results are published in the journal Autism.“
medicalxpress.com/news/2020-09-autistic-adults-higher-physical-health.html

Don’t speak on topics you’ve never researched yourself or experienced.

It is also not caused by vaccines or modern lifestyles.

Have you ever taken the time to research or read any (and I mean any) literature or studies on the causes of autism?

I can guarantee anyone who believes vaccines are safe and effective either hasn’t taken the time to read or research anything for themselves or decided after a quick google search that of course you can never disagree with the NHS and WHO stating that vaccines are safe. And no I’m not stating that the medical establishment is evil and trying to poison our children but it is true that the only training medical professions are given on vaccines is from the pharmaceutical companies themselves who have a huge annual multi billion profit from the vaccine schedule. You do realise that doctors and medical professions in their 5 years of studies and training take on 18 hours, yes 18 hours of training in vaccines and immunology? And from those 18 hours they are taught only by the pharmaceutical reps themselves? Has anyone who believes they are safe actually read any literature, studies, medical journals, peer reviewed studies to suggest otherwise? I already know the answer to this but would love to hear it from the horses mouth.

I’ve linked some books just in case anyone reading this is actually interested in educating themselves on vaccines.

Something doesn't have to visibly run in families to have a strong genetic component. I mean, there is solid evidence that PTSD has a strong genetic component, to the point it's commonly discussed with regards to genetic predisposition, but obviously it rarely runs visibly in families (though some suggest it may be part of why addictions run in families/communities).

Most chronic conditions listed have genetic predisposition and environmental factors (age being a major one for most of those listed). With autism, there have been links made to air pollution (with some caveats and some leaning more towards in-utero exposure over child's direct exposure though those often overlap) and some questions have been raised about maternal diet and lifestyle during pregnancy possibly raising the chances with a child who has a raised genetic risk. Even with knowing a lot of the risk factors in many of them - like genetics or overtraining in children is a risk factor for arthritis later in life - it's always a factor, it's never a guarantee.

Has anyone who believes they are safe actually read any literature, studies, medical journals, peer reviewed studies to suggest otherwise?

Yes, as a previously "delayed vaxxer" who now has paid to get additional vaccines privately for my kids, and also works with journals regularly, I have read quite a bit of the literature on it. Here 's one such article from 5 years ago that discusses the benefits and risks of components in recent vaccines pretty clearly, I think. Anything reputable on it will discuss the risks, but having risks doesn't make something not generally safe. Safe is always relative, even the 'stay at home' which is generally perceived as very safe has the risks in some to increase Vitamin D deficiencies, deconditioning health risks, and certain types of injuries before getting to interpersonal risks.

Also, please be aware that "non-fiction" books are very unlikely to be fact-checked by anyone but the author unless the author pays for it out of pocket themselves. The industry puts the entire liability for on the authors are rarely pays out for anything beyond basic copywriting consistency. It's an issue that has bit some authors in the butt and others have fought for better. We also have an issue with replication crisis in peer-reviewed journals across disciplines so that's always something to double check.

Speaking of, while I can believe general medical time on this is low - it seems like a specialty topic - I'm struggling to find a reputable source on pharma reps teaching courses at reputable medical schools (though actual pharma reps generally need specialty degrees themselves).