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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What can you do about parents who won't vaccinate

395 replies

mirandatempest · 07/09/2020 23:05

I've discovered that three of my friends have not vaccinated their children. I am normally very live and let live but this has really upset and bothered me. I've challenged them all but very gently as I
am useless at confrontation but can these friendships survive? I feel so angry.

OP posts:
Gancanny · 09/09/2020 22:24

The stats speak for themselves.

1-3 in 1,000 children who contract measles will develop encephalitis while unwell with measles. 10–15% of those children will die and a further 25% will be left with permanent neurological damage. 1 in 1,000 children with measles will develop encephalitis after they've recovered from measles. 1 in 25,000 of children (the risk increases to 1 in 5,500 children if they are under the age of 1) with measles will develop SSPE, this is a fatal condition.

The risk of developing encephalitis from the MMR is 1-2 in 1,000,000.

ActualStork223 · 09/09/2020 22:27

And if your previously happy a baby suddenly turned into a void? Babies due. After vaccination. H

Gancanny · 09/09/2020 22:28

A void? Really? Do please elaborate.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 09/09/2020 22:36

I think a thing to remember is that because measles was so extremely rare once there was a vaccine available and over 90% of children were routinely vaccinated, in 1998 most people under about forty had not consciously seen anyone with measles nor had to watch their child suffering the disease, let alone deal with any of its more serious or life-changing side effects. And we were all being told by Wakefield's followers and the media how dangerous vaccination was, but we were not being told how dangerous the disease itself is. In 2006 two children were severely and permanently injured by measles encephalitis despite undergoing kidney transplantation in London -- a risk from the disease itself which nobody was warning the public about in big scare headlines back in 1998. Encephalitis doesn't only happen because of the vaccine.

Mortality from measles ranges from 0.1 to 0.2% (in developed countries with good nutrition and medicine care available) to 10% (in undeveloped countries with poor medical availability and malnutrition).

The panic about the MMR vaccine was fanned by the media, and as far as I know the only one of the media which has ever published an apology for having published inaccurate and alarmist data is Private Eye of all places. They gave their retraction and apology a full page. Good for them.

(Wakefield had also tried to stir up a panic about the MMR in 1993, claiming that it caused Crohn's disease -- does anyone remember that? That theory was debunked fairly fast and didn't make it into the Lancet and get picked up by the popular press, so quite likely not. By 1995 he had moved on to claiming it caused ulcerative colitis. Sooner or later he was going to win his fight against that durn vaccination! Then the NHS-approved MMR vaccine would be taken out of use, and people would have to buy his patented one instead!)

ncd5785 · 09/09/2020 22:45

I suppose I'd be an anti vaxxer in that I don't have vaccinations because I'm immunocompromised and a lot of them are not recommended for use in people who are. I don't see why anyone would decide not to if they're fit and healthy, their kids are and there doesn't seem to be a risk of complications though

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 09/09/2020 22:57

Another thing to remember, of course, is that vaccines are not all the same as each other. Condemning them all out of hand is as silly as not eating anything at all because peanuts make some people seriously ill.

It's been said several times on this thread that there is a difference between anti-vaxxers (a matter of quasi-religious principle, similar to refusing blood transfusions for a child even if not having one will cause its death) and people who cannot have one or more of the available vaccinations for medical reasons.

yikesanotherbooboo · 09/09/2020 23:03

@ItsAlwaysSunnyOnMN one of the strong arguments against separate vaccines is the likely impact it would have on take up rates. Children who mix with others have a striking ability to catch viruses , be afflicted with temperatures and thus to postpone immunisation appointments. Adding more appointments into the current schedule would mean children not getting covered for these diseases in a timely manner or indeed at all. This was one of the reasons that the tiny baby immunisation Schedule was brought forward and compressed .
Add that to no medical benefit to separate vaccines and it doesn't make sense to be stocking up on all the various vaccines in order to offer choice while sacrificing some children's immunity to serious disease.!

june2007 · 10/09/2020 08:57

I chose for my children to have most vaccines but I am saying I don,t jusge those that don,t if like mine they had a bad reaction. I know a child who they thought it might have been the whooping cough vaccine that caused his brain damage. (this used to get the blame before mmr and wakefield) No proof of course but the child developed normally at first. It may have been a seazure that caused the brain damage but we ,ll never know.

Dinosauratemydaffodils · 10/09/2020 09:02

People who judge should watch a toddler having a seazure for 20 mins (or more.) due to raised temp due to a vaccine.

I was that toddler. Ended up on epilim for 4 years plus some pretty awful hospital stays. From my perspective having to tell a pregnant neighbour who babysat for me that I had rubella as an 11/12 year old was just as horrific. Obviously my mum may have disagreed but the fact that she made me tell her speaks for itself doesn't it. I made the mistake of looking up the damage rubella could do in the school library (military school, excellent resources) and had nightmares for weeks.

Gancanny · 10/09/2020 09:16

I know a child who they thought it might have been the whooping cough vaccine that caused his brain damage. (this used to get the blame before mmr and wakefield) No proof of course but the child developed normally at first. It may have been a seazure that caused the brain damage but we ,ll never know.

Vaccine damage exists but is very rare. I'm not sure what you're implying about MMR and normal development however vaccine safety is something that has been subject to many studies and there are no links to vaccines affecting normal development outside of the rare cases of vaccine damage.

june2007 · 10/09/2020 09:35

My point is that before MMR another vaccine got the blame. (So it is not likely to be the mmyr is it?)

Gancanny · 10/09/2020 11:00

Got the blame for what though?

canigooutyet · 10/09/2020 11:08

The thing when it comes to any medication and vaccine there can be risks.
Think there was one back in the 60's/70's that was withdrawn.

If there was no risk with vaccines then there wouldn't be the government vaccine damage scheme, it's paid out over £74 million since the 70's.

I'm not an anti vaxer, we have the ones we can.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 10/09/2020 11:34

Gancanny
Got the blame for what though?

Anything that would have been called possession when people still believed in God, I should think. Any imperfect or ill-behaved or just unusually-behaving child. Any instance of childhood ailment causing untoward results. You know, stuff that isn't because of the parents' genetic contribution or the environment at all.

Similarly, cancer is caused by mobile phone masts, and practically everything by the Masons or The International Jewish Conspiracy -- the last two seem to do evil things for no reason whatever, like the Dark Lord in a bad fantasy book, in the same way that of course the Evil Government wants to disable children and uses doctors to do it. And doctors are all too stupid to notice that they are being used to make people's lives worse rather then better.

(Sits back and waits for people to post one or two half-sentences of this post in order to tell me how much they disagree with me and how can I say such things....)

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 10/09/2020 11:38

All of life involves risk, which sooner or later kills everyone. There is 100% risk that you will eventually get old and your body will stop working -- unless the risk of an air crash or viral disease or lightning strike or sepsis or nuclear war or cancer or ... or farmer's lung gets you first.

That's why people take out life insurance.

QueenofPigs · 10/09/2020 12:11

I am a paediatrician and obviously find vaccine refusal incredibly upsetting and frustrating, because it kills and maims children.

Obviously it's a little different for me because I have a professional duty to promote children's health, which means engaging with vaccine refusing parents. I can't (or shouldn't) just switch off from the conversation, however frustrating it is.

Vaccine refusal doesn't make you a "bad person", whatever that means, but those parents I have encountered professionally who are vaccine refusers do seem to have poor critical thinking skills. Or they have overridden their critical thinking. Inevitably I suppose, because vaccines are among the safest and most studied medicines available, and their benefits are clear. There are usually other aspects of their parenting which are very caring and conscientious. They are usually, ironically, health anxious individuals. They do not have a good grasp on risk. Often they present very anxious when their children have very minor illness. They don't appreciate the difference between minor illness and serious or life threatening illness. A benign birthmark may be a terrifying omen. A viral rash or crying baby a sign of something very wrong. At the same time they fear and mistrust medical professionals. I think parenting with all of these factors going on is probably a frightening and lonely experience and I mostly feel sorry for them. I often think that maybe brain damage or death from vaccine preventable sepsis or encephalitis is actually more than they can bear to think about. A minority are just utter arseholes and it's completely about their ego (same can be said of some parents who do vaccinate of course!). But nearly all parents mean well for their children and prioritise their children as best they can. I think it's good for empathising with such parents, not to totally define them by their vaccine refusal, even though that is often a big part of how they define themselves.

The claims of anti-vaxxers fall apart without much scrutiny so there is usually some other driving factor behind believing them. I speculate that there is something gained psychologically (particularly for frightened individuals who distrust or are almost phobic of conventional medical authority - and often because of genuinely poor experiences) in belonging to a community that never doubts, questions or changes its beliefs. That tells them they are right, and that they are doing a good job to protect their child. The security of that is comforting and gives people an illusion of superiority, control and safety. The same appeal as all cults and conspiracies.

I find that you can't really improve an adult's critical thinking skills. So you have to explore the emotional reasons and concerns behind the refusal. And empower them to face the fear, actually face the decision (with it's risks, however minimal they are) and possibly change their mind. Something they will have to do alone, without a whole community telling them they're right. Possibly actually losing a community in the process. I don't think fear tactics or guilt trips work - emotionally the easiest response to negative emotions is to retreat to your place of safety and certainty, which is likely to be the beliefs that are driving the vaccine refusal! Fear and guilt disempower.

The most useful thing is to provide reassurance, and empathy, and kindness. To be another human being so that you reduce the us-and-them mentality which feeds cultish thinking. If somebody who refuses vaccines can see that you are a reasonable and kind person who is similar to them in many ways, and shares some or many of their parenting values, and yet you immunise your children, over time they may want to align with you instead of the fear-vampires making them terrified of vaccines. You can offer them an alternative to the community that is supporting them (at the potential cost of their children's health, though they won't see it that way). One of the most powerful statements I make as a health professional is "if I was my baby/child, I would absolutely want them to have this treatment" or "I chose this treatment for my child".

So, like all friendships, if it's a constant bone of contention that means spending time together is not pleasant, by all means, don't spend time with them. But if you can reach out and find why you have in common with this person and be their friend, you might save them or another family some real heartache (of course, the best and worst thing about vaccines is you never get to see what they have prevented). It might take months or years but it is not a lost cause.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 10/09/2020 12:40

What a superb post, QueenofPigs. Thank you.

FOKKYFC · 10/09/2020 12:45

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

What a superb post, QueenofPigs. Thank you.
Agreed.
chocciechocface · 10/09/2020 14:14

It is great post queenofpigs. And in understand why you wrote it.

But I'm not sure I can get past this bit wrt my friendships: "those parents I have encountered professionally who are vaccine refusers do seem to have poor critical thinking skills".

Unfortunately, that limitation doesn't stop at just vaccines.

The anti-vaxxer I know, also thinks 5G spreads coronavirus and that Gates is trying to insert chips into the world's population.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 10/09/2020 14:23

I can't help feeling that these things, which involve taking something on faith in a complete absence of evidence, are some sort of religion-substitute.

(How does your friend feel about the assassination of John F Kennedy? That was one of the earlier conspiracy theories.)

chocciechocface · 10/09/2020 14:26

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

I can't help feeling that these things, which involve taking something on faith in a complete absence of evidence, are some sort of religion-substitute.

(How does your friend feel about the assassination of John F Kennedy? That was one of the earlier conspiracy theories.)

I totally agree with you. In times of uncertainty, people used to go to church for answers to questions that cannot be answered. Now they go to Facebook.

chocciechocface · 10/09/2020 14:28

I don't know where she stands on JFK, but feel confident she would probably think he was assassinated. 'Deep dark state ' and all that.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 10/09/2020 14:55

Well, JFK was definitely assassinated, in that he was shot and died shortly afterwards; the conspiracy theories are around who did it, mostly. Like the "9-11 was orchestrated by the CIA" ones.

ItalianHat · 10/09/2020 15:01

But this is just so selfish and irresponsible. How can I be friends with people who would take these risks with the safety of an immuno suppressed child or person?

I wouldn't be. I would quietly drop them, or at the very least, not have anything to do with them in person. Yes, they are selfish & I would make a judgement of them.

(Moot point at the moment re COVID & social distancing, though!)

chocciechocface · 10/09/2020 15:24

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Well, JFK was definitely assassinated, in that he was shot and died shortly afterwards; the conspiracy theories are around who did it, mostly. Like the "9-11 was orchestrated by the CIA" ones.

Yes. I meant, assassinated by the CIA rather than Lee Harvey Oswald acting alone.

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