What can you do about parents who won't vaccinate

[mirandatempest]

I've discovered that three of my friends have not vaccinated their children. I am normally very live and let live but this has really upset and bothered me. I've challenged them all but very gently as I
am useless at confrontation but can these friendships survive? I feel so angry.

@Gancanny I stated facts but they were just shut down above 👆🏼 So much more I could have added but what’s what point when anything I say will just be call scaremongering and be discredited?! I’m not trying to change anyone’s opinion, I’m sorry but I really don’t care what you believe or what you do with your child. I only came on here to say that any parent should be able to choose what they feel is best without such harsh judgement and that clearly your child is safe if vaccinated so I really don’t see the issue.

jaffacakebox it's not up to you to close a discussion on a public forum. It absolutely is everyone's business, because tiny babies are unvaccinated and especially vulnerable, as well as immunocompromised people. Are other people's newborns just collateral damage to you, or do you think that babies shouldn't leave the house or have visitors until they're fully vaccinated according to the usual schedule, and immunocompromised people are going to die anyway and there aren't that many of them so nobody should spare them a thought?

Do you perhaps also object to wearing a mask to prevent potentially spreading covid and justify that by repeating the misunderstanding that people wear masks to protect themselves and rather than to protect others?

I stated facts but they were just shut down above

They weren't facts, they were opinions with no basis in fact.

If you're so sure that your assertions about vaccines causing autism, asthma, allergies, etc then please do post links to evidence that backs up these claims.

That's evidence, not anecdote or supposition or coincidence. I'll settle for research with several hundred examples, an equivalent control sample and a time-span of say twenty years. Whole population via NHS data (hospital admissions for example) is also good.

I have heard the theories that vaccines are one of a number of things contributing to higher rates of immune disorders, allergies, asthma and so on.

The thing is that in modern life you can avoid many of the things people worry about contributing to this kind of thing - food additives, plastics, sources of heavy metals, unnecessary skin products, etc - but realistically, you can't avoid everything. It's likely that in daily life you make decisions to expose your child to aspects of these things, pollution for example, perhaps you take public transport because this is greener than driving a car, but by standing at the bus stop DC are exposed to diesel and other traffic fumes.

Vaccines, IMO, are one of those trade offs you can and should make even while being concerned about the ingredients in them. If you look into it, the amounts of those ingredients are absolutely miniscule, less than you'd obtain by standing near a road, for example, and the benefits of vaccination (both to the individual and community) are huge, comparable with the impact of taking public transportation instead of driving a car.

I absolutely believe you that your common-or-garden "antivax" or "vaccine sceptic" parent is not doing anything except repeating what they believe to be true, not for personal gain, not for any reason except for concern for others to hear what they have heard. I get that. But. It is absolutely not true that nobody has anything to gain from spreading antivax rhetoric.

Firstly, not everybody in the alternative health industry is honest. There are people and companies in that field who really want a piece of the Big Pharma pie/profits, and they aren't above playing dirty to try and turn people towards their products. Think about it - they don't have the platform or the budget of the big pharma groups, so they play underhand. Ironically, it's not dissimilar to the tactics of infant formula manufacturers, a group many antivaxxers/natural health fans absolutely despise.

There have also been proven instances of influence groups using topics like vaccines/alternative health/clean eating in order to identify groups of people who are easy to convince of certain things, and then using that platform/group to push a particular political ideology in order to influence an election or other public event. Now that really does sounds crazy/conspiracist, yet it's happened.

Look up "David Avocado Wolfe" - just one example that springs to mind. I can't remember if he has done antivax stuff but it's the same kind of thing, and antivax gets used in the exact same way.

It's scary TBH.

I agree with @BertieBotts but There have also been proven instances of influence groups using topics like vaccines/alternative health/clean eating in order to identify groups of people who are easy to convince of certain things, and then using that platform/group to push a particular political ideology in order to influence an election or other public event. Now that really does sounds crazy/conspiracist, yet it's happened. influence can go both ways with any opposing belief, each side would have been influenced to some degree. As human beings we are heavily influenced daily you only have to look at marketing - advertising - religion to understand how this works.

My eldest son had his MMR vaccination and still caught mumps, I was told by our GP it’s very common and that vaccines don't always give a high enough of dose for protection for all children. I controversially refused the MMR for my younger son for this reason and I have to say my younger son is in much better health in general. My eldest has an allergy to dairy, eczema and persistent ear infections so it does make me question the connection but it could also be many other factors.

@ddl1...I know many many unvaccinated people, and as a rule most of them are very much of the ‘keep away from others if there is something doing the rounds, or if that person is immune suppressed’ school of thought. As a rule most of us understand there IS a small risk attached to our decision (and it is a small risk) and act accordingly. Are there people who think the earth is flat etc? Of course, but far less than mumsnet narrative would have you believe.
Also, in the real world literally no one has ever been ragingly angry when I mention that my children aren’t vaccinated, mostly they don’t care. A few ask why. That’s about it.

@Gancanny, @jaffacakebox didn’t say the vaccine caused those things, she said they were linked. Which they have been. She’s also correct that these threads typically go that anyone who doesn’t fall into the ‘anyone who even questions vaccines safety is a monster who wants To murder babies’ camp is shut down and abused and told their opinion and fears are stupid. That vaccines are safe and that’s it. Or told they must be a flat earther, or not believe in COVID or masks, And that’s frustrating because that’s just not true in most cases.
I don’t think vaccines causes my kids autism, I do suspect actually that maybe their autism sensory jes is why they reacted as badly as they did. But it’s indisputable fact that vaccine damage is real, and that my kids suffered it. Yes it’s rare, but rare means nothing when it’s your kid that’s experienced it and to dismiss their suffering as nothing just because it doesn’t happen often is really hurtful actually. I wouldn’t dream of saying to a parent who’s child had suffered due to measles or polio or whatever ‘oh but it’s rare that happens’ as if that made it ok.

Those who don’t vaccinate their children tend to live a more health conscious lifestyle in general. Exclusively breastfeeding for 1+ years, whole foods (not always vegan) minimally processed diets, no processed sugar, lots of water, outdoor exercise and sunlight all to naturally strengthen their children’s immune system. So without judging the way others live, their children do tend to be much healthier than the general population on a diet of sugar, cereal, bread and processed foods. I doubt you’ll see many anti-vaxx parents who formula feed (not that there’s anything from with formula feeding but this is the thought process to naturally build up the immune system) and eat Mc Donald’s, junk food so it’s hardly irresponsible parenting.

Also love how anyone who questions any mainstream narrative is also a flat-earth, ani-masking, conspiracy theorists 🤦‍♀️ is that the best argument people can come up with?

My eldest has an allergy to dairy, eczema and persistent ear infections so it does make me question the connection but it could also be many other factors

Contiguity does not mean causality.

Basic rule of science.

And second rule: the plural of anecdote is not data.

@jaffacakebox didn’t say the vaccine caused those things, she said they were linked. Which they have been

Except they haven't been linked except in anti-vaxx propaganda, in fact studies have found no link whatsoever.

www.nhs.uk/news/medication/no-link-between-mmr-and-autism-major-study-finds/

www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-03/chop-dvc030303.php#:~:text=%22Those%20studies%20found%20no%20evidence,immune%20system%20to%20attack%20itself.

www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccines-and-other-conditions/vaccines-asthma-allergies#

Also love how anyone who questions any mainstream narrative is also a flat-earth, ani-masking, conspiracy theorists

When someone is arguing a point using "facts" that do not correspond with the large amount of scientific data on the subject - for example, vaccines are linked to autism/asthma/other conditions when the scientific data shows they are not - then what else are people supposed to think of them?

Have their been in depth, long term, rigorous studies into variances between children who have been vaccinated and those who haven't in terms of asthma, autism and the like (and I don't mean by anti-vax propagandists)?

Those who don’t vaccinate their children tend to live a more health conscious lifestyle in general. Exclusively breastfeeding for 1+ years, whole foods (not always vegan) minimally processed diets, no processed sugar, lots of water, outdoor exercise and sunlight all to naturally strengthen their children’s immune system. So without judging the way others live, their children do tend to be much healthier than the general population on a diet of sugar, cereal, bread and processed foods. I doubt you’ll see many anti-vaxx parents who formula feed (not that there’s anything from with formula feeding but this is the thought process to naturally build up the immune system) and eat Mc Donald’s, junk food so it’s hardly irresponsible parenting.

No, no judgement at all in this statement

Regardless, one does not negate the other. Just because someone considers their lifestyle to be healthy does not mean it is socially acceptable for them to fail to protect their child on a basic level. Vaccines exist because they save lives and I do consider people who choose not to vaccinate with no medical reason to do so to be irresponsible.

If someone was to harm their child in a way which is illegal, no court will let them off on the basis that they also fed the child organic food and used cloth nappies.

But it’s indisputable fact that vaccine damage is real

No one on this thread has denied it's real however it is very rare and the benefits of vaccination far outweigh the minimal risks. The prevalence of vaccine damage is greatly overstated by the anti-vaxx movement and in reality is far lower than they try to make people think. Between 1978 and April 2017 the Vaccine Injury compensation scheme made just over 900 payments in total. While awful for the individual families, it shows just how rare such injuries are.

The risks if vaccines are much lower than those of the diseases themselves and much lower than the risk of permanent damage occurring- as an example the risk of developing encephalitis due to measles is up to 1 in 5000 whereas the risk of developing encephalitis as a side effect of the MMR vaccine is 1-2 in 1,000,000.

I don’t think vaccines causes my kids autism, I do suspect actually that maybe their autism sensory jes is why they reacted as badly as they did. But it’s indisputable fact that vaccine damage is real, and that my kids suffered it.

I'm not sure what damage your children suffered due to vaccines but being autistic does not increase someone's chance of reacting to a vaccine.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime 10 September 20.59
Excellent post, thank you.

As I said up thread, we (collectively) have mostly forgotten or probably never even knew what the UK was like before we had vaccines. We've never had to witness our friends and family contracting and dying from easily preventable dieases.

I'm sure if your primary aged child were to contract polio it would concentrate your mind on the upside of vaccines pretty darned quick.

I’d just mind my own business and get on with my day.

I really have no interest in getting into it with people who have different opinions to mine, if they want to preach to me about Anti vaccination then I would avoid them.

Other than the above I see no reason to be bothered by them not vaccinating their kids.

@diplodocusinermine

Have their been in depth, long term, rigorous studies into variances between children who have been vaccinated and those who haven't in terms of asthma, autism and the like (and I don't mean by anti-vax propagandists)?

When a friend of mines child was diagnosed with autism at about age three, I spent a few of weeks trying very hard to get my head around the subject and reading science papers on it. As far as I can tell, science long ago moved on from researching possible links between autism and vaccines because, after Wakefield, it was researched to death. It is one of the most researched areas ever. It is settled science that vaccines do not cause autism. There were other things being explored as possible links to autism, which I did read a lot about. But not vaccines. Done, dusted and moved on. It's just that anti-vaxxers prefer to believe propaganda over science. And they cannot distinguish between fact and fiction.

Those who don’t vaccinate their children tend to live a more health conscious lifestyle in general. Exclusively breastfeeding for 1+ years, whole foods (not always vegan) minimally processed diets, no processed sugar, lots of water, outdoor exercise and sunlight all to naturally strengthen their children’s immune system. So without judging the way others live, their children do tend to be much healthier than the general population on a diet of sugar, cereal, bread and processed foods. I doubt you’ll see many anti-vaxx parents who formula feed (not that there’s anything from with formula feeding but this is the thought process to naturally build up the immune system) and eat Mc Donald’s, junk food so it’s hardly irresponsible parenting.

Apart from the judgement and insufferable smuggy-pants attitude oozing out of this, the other thing that irks me is the spectacular arrogance that humans, if they live a certain way, can always trump nature. That we are so superior to nature.

Even wild animals living totally natural wild animal lives in the wild can get ill. Viruses are living organisms, and it is not inconceivable that, in our 'natural' state, they might be more powerful and dangerous than us.

@diplodocusinermine

Have their been in depth, long term, rigorous studies into variances between children who have been vaccinated and those who haven't in terms of asthma, autism and the like (and I don't mean by anti-vax propagandists)?

I would also be interested to know what the incidence of autism was in the population before vaccines were routinely given, but that is past praying for because except in very extreme cases it probably wasn't diagnosed as autism before 1950, and between then and 1981 Asperger's and autism were not thought to be related conditions as far as I can make out and there is a mix-up involving "childhood schizophrenia" to be taken into account as well. The trouble of course is that it may be genetic there now seems to be quite a lot of evidence pointing that way -- and that is the last thing anyone with an autistic child would want to believe. I don't blame them. It's fine saying "oh look, he's got your father's eyebrows", not so fine saying "oh, he's a bit strange just like your Uncle Albert."

In two of the cases I know because they are the children of friends of mine, autism appears to have been caused by a pre-birth medication of the mother in one, and by oxygen-deprivation during the birth in the other; but these causes cannot apply in all cases. Or if they do, it's pretty damn' disgraceful that this has not been made the subject of widespread reporting.

(Autism, incidentally, seems to be a dodgy term to use: even just looking it up on Wikipedia makes it clear that "on the autistic spectrum" is a better descriptor. It manifests so differently from one individual to another that just saying "autism" is a bit like saying "a bone condition": not a lot of help without a lot more explanation to refine what is actually meant.)

These are the vaccines offered by the NHS as routine:
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899423/PHE_Complete_Immunisation_Schedule_Jun2020_05.pdf
If vaccination is so bad for people, it is amazing that so very few children seem demonstrably to have been adversely affected by it over the past sixty years or so.

The trouble of course is that it may be genetic there now seems to be quite a lot of evidence pointing that way and that is the last thing anyone with an autistic child would want to believe

Genetic factors causing autism are something I'm fine with.

Fine possibly isn't the right word. What I mean is that I it doesn't upset me or bother me to know that autism is caused by genetic factors. Part of the reason why DH and I decided against having one more child is that, according to DS neurologist, the chance of us having another autistic child was just 1 in 4 as we already have two autistic children. My DC will need to be aware when they are older and may be planning a family that their chance of an autistic child will be around 1 in 25.

DS had genetic testing as part of his diagnosis as some of the genes related to autism have been identified, we were advised that if the test was negative it doesn't mean he isn't autistic it just means he has one of the associated genes that has yet to be identified.

chocciechocface
Viruses are living organisms, and it is not inconceivable that, in our 'natural' state, they might be more powerful and dangerous than us.

Well, in our natural pre-vaccination state diphtheria, measles, smallpox, meningitis, scarlet fever, whooping cough and polio killed about twenty per cent of the population before the age of fifteen, so yes, they probably were more powerful than we were. Flu too was a killer, of course; still is but nothing like so often among children as it used to be.

A reasonable estimate across all cultures for which we have records (starting with BC Rome; I don't think China has been included) suggests that as a rule of thumb, about a quarter of infants died before the age of one and half of all children died before the age of fifteen. I remember my mother superstitiously saying that she decided she would stop at three, but she was afraid I wouldn't survive because I was a sickly child. She was one of eight children of whom seven survived, one by the skin of his teeth and after he had been despaired of (measles at the age of ten). The one who died had "a fever" at the age of two -- nobody really seems to have known what the fever was, so probably not with an easily-identified rash or something obvious like polio or whooping-cough.

Well, in our natural pre-vaccination state diphtheria, measles, smallpox, meningitis, scarlet fever, whooping cough and polio killed about twenty per cent of the population before the age of fifteen, so yes, they probably were more powerful than we were.

Ah, but, the anti-vaxxer I know would argue that people didn't know as much about diet etc, and immune systems probably weren't as strong back then as they are now. She's all about trusting your immune system on its own to deal with all infections. And she thinks diet and exercise is all we need in all situations.

A far better argument, which I advise you not to give her, is that when the average number of children one woman had was six, if three of them hadn't died the population would be completely out of control and we would all by dying of either starvation or war over food....

Seriously: the greater percentage mortality probably has far more to do with sheer numbers than anything else. That does tend to work against "vaccinations are a good thing", I suppose -- though not if it were three children of mine!