To agree that colleagues moving out of London are doing the right thing

[disorganisedsecretsquirrel]

'Base office' is in South London. I have WFH for years so this is not about me...

Colleagues have been WFH since lockdown.. most had done at least one day a week at home for years ( because we have a sane boss ) .. then Covid happened and it became apparent to all that we had never 'needed' to be there..

Now our department (Civil Service) has closed our office. to us - to make room for those who have to see the public/ need to be in the office. So my colleagues have started to make moves.. we are a team of 16. So far, 2 have made offers on properties in Devon and Cornwall, 2 in Norfolk /Suffolk , 1 in the lakes (lucky bugger) and one to Sussex. (All previously in South London.

Our contracts have been changed to WFH (if we chose this) ..

AIBU to say that the government push to get 'everyone back in the office' does not reflect the reality of what people want.. mostly to do with the commute.. (cost of) and quality of life.. my lovely colleague going to Wales is swapping a 1 bed in Streatham for a 3 bed small holding for half the cost of her current mortgage . She has 2 kids that share a room and her and DH sleep on a sofa bed !

Come back and tell us how the friend who buys the 3 bed small holding in Wales gets on in a year. Coming from a 1 bed flat it doesn't sound like she has great experience in the costs, time, energy and effort involved.

There's a property in our v rural village that'a described as a 4 bed small holding/rural idyll. It's bought every few years by a family thinking they want to live the dream. Then they realise the dream costs a fortune to heat, insure and maintain. And that animals need 24/7 365 days a year attention. That the pig will farrow on the night you're out for your anniversary meal and it'll take 30 mins to drive to the nearest takeaway. And you'll turn into a taxi driver for your for your kids. Then they head back to the town.

The reality of a big house in the country is often very different to what you imagine it to benn

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@flowerycurtain

Come back and tell us how the friend who buys the 3 bed small holding in Wales gets on in a year. Coming from a 1 bed flat it doesn't sound like she has great experience in the costs, time, energy and effort involved.

There's a property in our v rural village that'a described as a 4 bed small holding/rural idyll. It's bought every few years by a family thinking they want to live the dream. Then they realise the dream costs a fortune to heat, insure and maintain. And that animals need 24/7 365 days a year attention. That the pig will farrow on the night you're out for your anniversary meal and it'll take 30 mins to drive to the nearest takeaway. And you'll turn into a taxi driver for your for your kids. Then they head back to the town.

The reality of a big house in the country is often very different to what you imagine it to benn

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Been there got the teeshirt. Had a wonderful 20 years with animals, raising children. But the time came to downsize. Our oil bill was 3.5k pa electricity another 1k. We had the log burner going daily in the winter too. Our bills in this cosy home are so low, instant hot water, shops nearby. It was right for us at the time, but now it is not.

If people with London based jobs choose to move out of a commutable distance I presume they will be funding their own peak time travel to attend meetings twice a month (or whatever required) - depending on where they have moved to that might wipe out the cost savings entirely! And I certainly can’t see employers funding that through expenses as it is entirely reasonable to ask staff to attend f2f meetings.

Yanbu. The media keep repeating Boris’ press releases saying how important it is to get everyone back into city centres. But why?! Sure, a few London branches of Pret and Costa may close, but the benefits of working from home are overwhelming. Less strained and over crowded travel system, less inflation of city property prices, less breathing pollution (a long term saving gor NHS), more time with families (my son used to only see his dad at weekends because of working hrs, now they chat several times throughout the day).

And all that money that used to be spent in city centre cafes is now being spent in towns and village high streets that were really struggling pre-pandemic. There are queues outside our village coffee shop, it’s lovely to see. The Government still get the £ tax it’s just being spent in a different location.

Boris and his pals are probably just worried their favourite Westminster restaurant isn’t making as much profit as it used to. Well boo hoo.

@Motheroftwofeline when my job changed from city based to home based travelling for meetings was most certainly claimable travel expenses, same as if I had travelled to any other site. I dont know why you think it wouldnt?

IME of working in London, the cultural aspects were over-rated. Commuting whether into London or across London was expensive, unpleasant and time consuming. This meant that there wasnt money, energy or time left for anything else. On the rare occasions when I met someone after work for a drink the weight of the commute home would always be hanging over me.

Well - I could just up and go, but I have children who have school. Disrupt their lives anymore than it has already would be crazy. Some people can’t just up and leave - it’s not that simple. Also - the detriment of just working at home, void of other human interaction? No thanks.

Hope they realise that wfh with rural internet isn’t fun

@Wbeezer but how do you know these "southerners" didn't originate from those areas or nearby in the first place?

Plus no one seems particularly bothered when house prices drive our born & bred Londoners or they are pushed into social housing outside of the city.

I also think people forget that many people pre Covid already had the ability to wfh 1 or 2 days a week.

I think they are mad and it's a knee jerk reaction.
Last year a colleague of mine moved to rural Scotland on the basis that he could work remotely. Brilliant until the business revisited this and decided to just subcontract the entire function out.
Now he is in rural Scotland with no job. And there are no jobs at all.

@Skysblue

Yanbu. The media keep repeating Boris’ press releases saying how important it is to get everyone back into city centres. But why?! Sure, a few London branches of Pret and Costa may close, but the benefits of working from home are overwhelming. Less strained and over crowded travel system, less inflation of city property prices, less breathing pollution (a long term saving gor NHS), more time with families (my son used to only see his dad at weekends because of working hrs, now they chat several times throughout the day).

And all that money that used to be spent in city centre cafes is now being spent in towns and village high streets that were really struggling pre-pandemic. There are queues outside our village coffee shop, it’s lovely to see. The Government still get the £ tax it’s just being spent in a different location.

Boris and his pals are probably just worried their favourite Westminster restaurant isn’t making as much profit as it used to. Well boo hoo.

Totally agree with this. The focus is all on the reduced spending In Businesses within economic/employment centres and not on increased spending with those smaller, more agile local businesses. A new cafe opened in the park in my town the week of lockdown. Devastating for them and we were sure that was that and they'd go under. But they were flexible and proactive enough to open offering take aways etc as soon as the rules were relaxed, cashed in on the increase in people using the park and greater number of people working from home (town is a real dormitory town with lots of commuters). They've built on people's changes in routine and lifestyle and now become a new habit for many people living in the town and have had an incredible few months' trade - far better than would have done in "normal" times and than they could have done if they couldn't have been so reactive and entrepreneurial.

We need to focus on the bigger picture when discussing the social and economic impacts of increased WFH.

@Motheroftwofeline

If people with London based jobs choose to move out of a commutable distance I presume they will be funding their own peak time travel to attend meetings twice a month (or whatever required) - depending on where they have moved to that might wipe out the cost savings entirely! And I certainly can’t see employers funding that through expenses as it is entirely reasonable to ask staff to attend f2f meetings.

I find comments like this so intriguing. There are a few on this thread with an underlying sense of negativity and obstructiveness - as though people shouldn't be allowed to enjoy a better quality of life AND be remunerated fairly for the work they do.

It's quite common for home-based employees to claim expenses when travelling for work meetings as expenses are calculated on your "base".

I think we are long overdue a correction away from cities in this respect. And it makes no sense for people to clog up roads and trains and buses to do a job they can do everywhere. And local towns will prosper as they are used less as dormitory working towns.

I think this will be one of the lasting legacies is covid which produces enormous change. Our company was so slow to embrace WFH.

But the massive downsides will be property pride increases in areas which were previously affordable for locals. This is already happening apparently in areas of scotland previously treated as holiday destinations only

@Wbeezer

I am planning to move more rurally in a few years, a lifelong ambition but i expect ill now be permanently outbid by Londoners. A third of property transactions in the Highlands atm are people from England. Resentment will build if this continues or increases. Its a bit different if people are working directly in the local community, providing services or employment that are needed but not doing meetings remotely and pricing locals out of the market. We had fewer job opportunities and less money but our compensation was more space and fresh air, now i feel southerners will just leapfrog over us and act like theyve discovered the secret to happiness. Yes, i am feeling a bit bitter and twisted, feel as though i should have jumped a couple of years ago...

This does read as incredibly spiteful (I know it's raw and unfair that it's impacting on you). There isn't some invisible barrier between parts of the UK which should prevent people moving between areas for a better quality of life. People leave places they were born and brought up for better opportunities and then move again when a career and salary has been established and they are seeking a better quality of life. That's perfectly ok! The issues isn't with those people. The unjustness comes from the a lack of social mobility, concentrations of higher paid jobs, crazy land and property prices in certain areas which push people around the country and hold other people back depending on their upbringing.

@lioncitygirl

Well - I could just up and go, but I have children who have school. Disrupt their lives anymore than it has already would be crazy. Some people can’t just up and leave - it’s not that simple. Also - the detriment of just working at home, void of other human interaction? No thanks.

So because it doesn't work for some (ie you), no-one should have the option?

@Polnm

Hope they realise that wfh with rural internet isn’t fun

Doesn't Boris have wild plans for rural gigabit broadband infrastructure? I'm sure there's funding available now, and a national agenda more generally to improve digital infrastructure.

[quote looperb]@Wbeezer but how do you know these "southerners" didn't originate from those areas or nearby in the first place?

Plus no one seems particularly bothered when house prices drive our born & bred Londoners or they are pushed into social housing outside of the city. [/quote]
This!

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow

I think we are long overdue a correction away from cities in this respect. And it makes no sense for people to clog up roads and trains and buses to do a job they can do everywhere. And local towns will prosper as they are used less as dormitory working towns.

I think this will be one of the lasting legacies is covid which produces enormous change. Our company was so slow to embrace WFH.

But the massive downsides will be property pride increases in areas which were previously affordable for locals. This is already happening apparently in areas of scotland previously treated as holiday destinations only

Agree.

Interesting point about property prices. I think it's likely to be more complicated than just property prices up though. Wouldn't go as far as suggesting a levelling, but I wonder if they type of property people will look for will be changing (space internally more important, for instance). Plus the government still needs to hit their 300,000 homes a year and their logic is that flooding the market will reduce property prices. The question is whether the proposal they've made mean these homes will be built in the right places. Currently the formula would focus these where there are existing affordability issues (so more in London, south east). Should they readjust this "algorithm" to take account of increasing demand in areas people would traditionally have holidayed in?

People leave places they were born and brought up for better opportunities and then move again when a career and salary has been established and they are seeking a better quality of life. That's perfectly ok! The issues isn't with those people. The unjustness comes from the a lack of social mobility, concentrations of higher paid jobs, crazy land and property prices in certain areas which push people around the country and hold other people back depending on their upbringing.

Yep, plus my parents had no choice but to leave their own country & come to London for opportunity like pretty much all my friends parents & many couldn't speak the language.

I don't think WFH is sustainable for most businesses in the long term. There is a lack of team cohesion, and I'd imagine a possible risk of a slide into complacency- that's my fear, and the only way to see if that's true is time. My fear is if the WFH model becomes untenable, all the people who have moved away from their base may either need to move back ASAP, or get a job elsewhere.

I wfh in the highlands, for some people that would be hell, fair few colleagues wfh in cities as they want the buzz, more facilities etc, a lot do live in rural areas or more northern though. Different strokes and all that.

Come back and tell us how the friend who buys the 3 bed small holding in Wales gets on in a year.

Well... Having a family in a one-bed flat when they could have got a house for the same money 2-3zones out/ just outside London and now moving to a smallholding in Wales.... Sounds like the sort of person who should give their head a massive wobble.

These kind of long term moves feel too early for me. My organisation (several big city offices in London/other UK cities) is due to make an announcement about longer term working next month. I'm expecting for my dept it will be a choice of 100% remote or 1/2 days per week - very much a hybrid model.

We have kids in school so it's not as easy to uproot. At this stage I'm concerned if I lost my job/wanted to move I'd struggle to find another remote post. Looking on Linked In, I'm starting to see the odd job in my field advertised as remote. Personally I want to see a much bigger swing towards advertised remote posts before I make any big move.

I think that Covid has booted a number of City firms down a road that others, not City based, had been travelling down far longer.

IME City based workers werent more productive or great communicators. They believed their own mythology that they were at the centre of things. Long, arduous commutes were worn as a badge of honour. The City based workers actually worked shorter hours and were less productive than their provincial counterparts.

Covid has forced City based offices to embrace WFH. The technology has been there for some time, they just didnt want to use it. They are finally waking up to the possibilities which include permanent remote working.

Companies will be quick to realise that they are not confined to recruiting in the UK. People might be willing to work for less, even in developed english-speaking countries. We're not just talking about call centres in India. If WFH is proven to be viable, it will become a global job market for many sectors.