To agree that colleagues moving out of London are doing the right thing

[disorganisedsecretsquirrel]

'Base office' is in South London. I have WFH for years so this is not about me...

Colleagues have been WFH since lockdown.. most had done at least one day a week at home for years ( because we have a sane boss ) .. then Covid happened and it became apparent to all that we had never 'needed' to be there..

Now our department (Civil Service) has closed our office. to us - to make room for those who have to see the public/ need to be in the office. So my colleagues have started to make moves.. we are a team of 16. So far, 2 have made offers on properties in Devon and Cornwall, 2 in Norfolk /Suffolk , 1 in the lakes (lucky bugger) and one to Sussex. (All previously in South London.

Our contracts have been changed to WFH (if we chose this) ..

AIBU to say that the government push to get 'everyone back in the office' does not reflect the reality of what people want.. mostly to do with the commute.. (cost of) and quality of life.. my lovely colleague going to Wales is swapping a 1 bed in Streatham for a 3 bed small holding for half the cost of her current mortgage . She has 2 kids that share a room and her and DH sleep on a sofa bed !

BJ hates the civil service (or should I say our De facto PM hates us... ) I give not a shiny fuck what that utter fuckwit thinks...

Well that’s fantastic for your colleague. But what about the locals of this area of wales who will have their property prices pushed up with London salaries coming to the area?

To be fair the colleague could be a Londoner who's has to move out cause all she can afford is a small flat.

@formerbabe that stops me but now I'm thinking in 15 yrs time when my dc are looking for work who knows what it will look like.

At the moment London firms need to pay more so staff can afford to live in London to be fair very few get paid well enough to "afford" London unless they are old enough to have benefited from the property boom.

@Womencanlift

The danger of wfh forever more is how do people develop their careers especially those just starting out. A lot of experience is gained by sitting with people, listening to them and what is going on around you, going for lunch with colleagues and getting to know them.

All these relationships and experiences will be lost when people’s work environment becomes the four walls of a bedroom.

I think this will be a massive detriment to both personal development and organisational performance if this becomes the norm

Firms will have to find ways of training and developing their younger staff. You're absolutely right, most trainees can't "learn on the job" if they're not surrounded by other staff to mentor them. There's a limit to what someone can learn on courses. In professions such as accountancy, the on the job learning/experience is just as important (if not more so) than the formal courses/exams. You can't get a practising certificate without 2/3 years of supervised work - that's going to be difficult for those working from home (both trainee and supervisor).

Tbh womencanlift .. I have just secured a promotion. Based on the fact that I am 'willing' to WFH (like that's a hardship) .. I will be working in policy , so all my meetings can take place remotely ...

Im currently studying what our company (not UK) should do going forwards concerning WFH.

The problem is reaching conclusions based on 6 months imposed WFH, and making huge decisions on that. Its one thing having dozens of people who previously have seen each other day in, day out, WFH in a temporary, forced situation. Its another thing making that change permanent. What about new recruits? How will they build the professional relationships without all those mentoring sessions and water cooler moments? How will the company culture be shared with everyone working remotely 100% of the time? How will MH be impacted when WFH through the autumn and winter, compared to nice sunny lockdown days?

Anyone who is in a settled family environment will be happier working from home than a young graduate who relies on the workplace for socializing - not necessarily outside of work hours, but also during them. I loved my coffee breaks and lunches with colleagues when I was a graduate - usually enjoying seeing people who weren't in my team.

I think a hybrid model is best.

I think a lot of this “wfh is what people want” is quite London/SE centric. The massively long and expensive commutes tend not to be an issue where I live. People had better work/life balance to start with so wfh is more likely to have had a negative rather than positive impact. Of course it could be that we’ve all been stuck at home with small children, but most of my family and friends are really keen to get back to the office for at least part of the week.

That’s not to say I don’t think this latest government push is bollocks, I think it’s completely missing the point which is that in most cases it’s businesses/organisations and their management deciding to continue wfh, not the workers themselves.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFricket

Your salient points are giving me a sound basis from which to speculate about this 'experiment'. Sure everything you say is true.
User149, ditto.

WFH requires different skills to working in the office. Communication skills are vital - humans gain so much information through body language- its harder over video.

Ive read many interesting studies and papers on the "new normal" for businesses and whilst WFH will be more mainstream, you still need an office for certain activities.

Diverseopinions you are too clever for me. I have no idea what you ate talking about.. but if your comment makes you feel clever.. enjoy.

Yes BikeTyson this is a London centric conversation.... you are absolutely right... I am forever grateful that the majority of my work means I don't have the London commute which I think (know) is the main issue...

maybe they will lose the "London weighting " element of their salaries.

If anyone thinks the London weighting element of anyone's salary is adequate compensation for the housing/commuting costs in London they are deluded.

@disorganisedsecretsquirrel

Tbh womencanlift .. I have just secured a promotion. Based on the fact that I am 'willing' to WFH (like that's a hardship) .. I will be working in policy , so all my meetings can take place remotely ...

I think it will depend on the industry and even the organisation. There has already been talk in my team that if we are not back in the office it is going to add at least one year to the average time to get promoted due to the nature of our work

@Chicchicchicchiclana true dat!

WFH ft for everybody has a negative impact on economies though. Pret has announced redundancies this week. It's obvious this has been because of office staff wfh. Other sandwich shops, pubs, etc will all be similarly affected. I think that's why BoJo wants people back at work.

Personally I wouldn't like to wfh all the time anyway. Yes the main reason why I go to work is money, but I also like the social side. I couldn't do it anyhow. I'm a CPN and while wfh say 1 day a week to write reports etc is realistic, I need to have face to face contact with patients. We've done a lot of assessments over the phone during lockdown. I hate it. I hate the phone anyway, but find it easier to build up a rapport with patients face to face, also it's easier to assess e.g. self care, eye contact etc. Sometimes we use interpreters which can be done over the phone via a 3 way call. But that's difficult. It's hard to know sometimes who's talking, patient or interpreter.

Yes not having the commute is good, but that's the only advantage for me.

@Spidey66 I think it's tricky now though in that many people pre C probably didn't know the true cost of spending on sandwiches, coffee, pub etc so even if they go back to the office they may not revert back plus social distancing makes it a bit of a faff for some as well. My supermarket shop has also gone up so I want to make savings.

If civil service salary scales are anything like NHS/local government salary scales, the pay difference between "in London" and "not London" is too small to make any difference to local house prices.

I get a whole £800 a year more in central London than my colleagues in Bolton (or anywhere else with cheap house prices). That is really not going to push anyone out of the housing market.

But yes, I would want to be 100% certain that the WFH rules weren't going to be reversed. Even if they just say that all new appointees have to work on site, that could really screw you if you want a promotion but can't afford London prices any more.

Me too Jwww. Moved out because job relocated and relocation package was too good to refuse. Sometimes I think I made the wrong decision.

There seems to be some crazy business decisions on this thread.

There’s a global pandemic on - why is there a company offering a massive pay rise t wfh. Aren’t people just grateful for jobs?

I appreciate civil service is different and v strict but any sensible company who allows people to wfh permanently should give a pay cut. Why pay for London employees?

Suspect the reality for a lot of companies will be the hybrid - so cut office costs but managers still keep an eye on teams/true collaboration will take place.

I just moved 30 mins away from where I used to live, which was, in turn, 30 mins outside another European capital city.

We'd offered on the place before all this stuff hit, so were ahead of the curve in moving out. Our money, which would have afforded a 25 year old 2.5 bed semi where we were, got us a 10 year old 5 bed detached on 1/3rd acre.

I think that this must be the start of property in city centres being more affordable - even though at the moment it doesn't look like it. I wonder if London just has investors getting in while it's cheap, on the assumption that London property always goes up?

There’s a global pandemic on - why is there a company offering a massive pay rise t wfh. Aren’t people just grateful for jobs?

Well plenty of companies will have been unaffected @Pumpkinnose. In this case the pay rise is because they are saving more having the employee at home.

@Pumpkinnose you can't just employee someone on a contracted salary & then reduce it because the company has closed the office. Some businesses will make huge savings having smaller & less busy offices.

I love London - I'm moving there next year. I'll have to downsize to a house half the size of my current one, but I believe the trade off and opportunity London offers me and my children worth it.
You write as if living in London, or commuting into it, is a huge burden and no one would choose to do it if they had a choice. That ignores the fact it is a huge cultural resource, a dynamic environment that many people cherish.
When I got my first job my work was everything - my social life and family. I would not have learned half of what I did working from home.
Some jobs can be done remotely, no question. But not all, and many will suffer from not being in a central office. Flexibility may be key.
And as has been mentioned - people talk about the death of the high street because of online shopping. So many businesses rely on people working in central areas. While this is not a reason in itself to keep offices going, it is something to consider the knock on effect. A community is not made up of people staying within their own four walls.
And socially? I know people who left the city (not necessarily London) for a greener, more 'wholesome' lifestyle, only to find their social life narrowed, a huge dependency on their car, lack of amenities, and a lack of cultural diversity. I am feeling the construction of my current environment as I look to the next phase of my life (as my children age). There's not enough for me here.