Serious? Do men know the slightest about women

[Gothamgirl1970]

Posting here for traffic and opinions.

As it’s 3 am and I am posting it’s because I simply am perplexed and need the hive mind.
Dating apps: presumably a person joins up because they would like to meet someone for company, to find love, just a shag or probably 100 other reasons I can’t contemplate this late.
I’m not sure if this holds true for all age groups but what I’ve observed is in men 46-58. In the profile area you can post some photos if you wish. A lot of men do but write no bio which tells me nothing and essentially they are just a body.
Here’s my serious question. Approximately 60% of men with photos lead the opening photo of themselves In Lycra gear with a helmet and sunglasses on, a bit of mud displaying their bicycle with pride. In many cases all 3 photos will be man and bike. Mid flight, crossing some finish line etc.
I know lots of women who are also befuddled by why a man would think bike photos would interest any woman in him at all. Shouldn’t they put a photo that shows the face, and is in a friendly happy pose?
What is it these cycle mad men are trying to convey? I cycle most of the time so I won’t have any time to spend with you? I want a woman who will cycle with me ? Look at my bike it’s impressive? I look decent in Lycra?
Please help. My friends and I are dying to know why they do this and what they are trying to communicate and further who are they thinking they can attract with this?

AIBU to not have to look at literally hundreds of cycling photos?

RabbittyMcRabbit Even less attractive is the photo of a grown-ass man (or woman tbh, but we're talking about men here) sticking their tongue out at the camera. I have never understood the "appeal" of this. Just no

I noticed this too. From your username, are you also in Scotland by any chance? There are literally hordes of men on online dating here with sticking their tongues out in their photos. I can only assume that they are in the closet and actually sending signals to other men?

Also the ones posing with beer cans in hand. Loads of them too. No wonder I have given it up.

@inickedyourbiro, I almost spat out my tea laughing! There used to be a feature in a cycling magazine called Bikelock Holmes with a similar concept.

@DancingCatGif

Men have no interest in pandering to women because most of them think they should be accepted just as they are.

Women feel they need to improve themselves, market themselves, lose weight, put on makeup, remove every hair from eyebrows down because they feel like they aren't enough.

Most men just go tada, here I am, fat, useless, ugly, sweaty, self obsessed, bike obsessed or whatever they are and some poor deluded woman will take them on anyway.

If this is indeed the male approach, I fail to see the problem with it. It's honest and straightforward. If you don't want to date someone who is fat, useless, ugly, sweaty, self obsessed, bike obsessed or whatever then don't. You've been warned.

Maybe the poor deluded woman who takes them on likes them.

Men have no interest in pandering to women because most of them think they should be accepted just as they are. Women feel they need to improve themselves, market themselves, lose weight, put on makeup, remove every hair from eyebrows down because they feel like they aren't enough. Most men just go tada, here I am, fat, useless, ugly, sweaty, self obsessed, bike obsessed or whatever they are and some poor deluded woman will take them on anyway.

This above! But I think that's a good thing! If biking is important to them at least you know it from the outset. And it's completely up to them to choose a woman who is happy with that lifestyle. Also vast majority of men don't give two shits if our eyebrows are plucked or we are wearing make up. So if you are doing that for men you are wasting your time!

@TooTrueToBeGood

I will provide some high level insight that is general so as not to be outing.

I was lucky enough to have a top flight education from 2 prestigious universities. Because I had dual passions I took advanced degrees in two different professional specialist disciplines. I didn’t do this with any plan in mind I just loved both subject matters deeply and wanted to learn all I could but didn’t have an idea of what would be the start of my professional career. By kismet technology came looking for me first and I started at age 19 as an intern in a FAANG which I stayed with for more than 14 years attaining a C level role in an engineering BU and for the last 5 years of my tenure I was the most senior woman in the company in EMEA. Then as a woman I hit the ceiling and changed into a different career sector

@IncandescentSilver

Tom Pinch - I dated a shy guy, on and off, for years. I adored him. All our mutual friends told me he was shy, and I agreed with them that he needed time to find himself.

He wasn't shy, he was self absorbed and secretive. He had a secret girlfriend or two for much of that time, dumped me horribly twice, dated other women, dumped them and blocked them, blocked me, cut off all the former mutual friends (including men who were genuinely hurt by it), etc, etc. Strangely, he wasn't too shy to cheat on me!

I'm now very wary of supposedly shy men!

I am sorry you got dicked around like this. But it appears that you weren't dating anything like a shy bloke, just a manipulative one.

[quote Gothamgirl1970]@Cam77

I love your post and couldn’t agree more but I’d like to add a few thoughts. I’m a U.K. citizen but not by birth and a citizen of my birth country and another country. The prisoner/ cause-effect of lack of therapeutic intervention before the offending occurs is statistically more significant in the U.K. than any other developed/1rst world country due to the negative perception of therapy by the British population. Therefore it is not offered or if offered declined more than 40% of the time. This cognitive bias must be addressed not only to reduce the criminal population of known offenders but to retard any child teen or vulnerable person who has unresolved issues that could lead to that person becoming an offender. Preventative therapeutic intervention is nearly non existent.

I have written two books and several publications on toxic masculinity. Please PM me.[/quote]
@Gothamgirl1970

I totally agree with you about how therapy is viewed here in the UK. I am a counsellor and a Jungian at heart, and I see so much dysfunction, particularly around mid-life, due to people's inability to - in James Hollis's words - "get psychological" about their behaviour.

Most men on OLD are grappling with midlife, and poorly. Most women too, I feel, but differently. Toxic masculinity is rife; but so is toxic femininity. As a Jungian I don't believe we can look at one without looking at the other, and the latter is more likely to be overlooked because it is deeply uncomfortable.

Having tried OLD myself several times, always with hope, I have realised that I ask too much of partners to hope to find someone there. I am complicated; I am driven by a desire to understand what is going on under the surface, and to strip away anything that no longer works for me. I will not settle for an inability to introspect or a failure to take responsibility for oneself in a partnership. This does not typically make me "relationship material". I find men are fascinated at first, and then start to dislike it. I don't blame them - but I am who I am, and that has narrowed the field down to a fine sliver.

@IncandescentSilver

RabbittyMcRabbit Even less attractive is the photo of a grown-ass man (or woman tbh, but we're talking about men here) sticking their tongue out at the camera. I have never understood the "appeal" of this. Just no

I noticed this too. From your username, are you also in Scotland by any chance? There are literally hordes of men on online dating here with sticking their tongues out in their photos. I can only assume that they are in the closet and actually sending signals to other men?

Also the ones posing with beer cans in hand. Loads of them too. No wonder I have given it up.

Seen at last two posing with guns! I know it’s farming country where I am, but still?!

I’d rather a bike any day!

inickedyourbiro OMG you have hit the nail on the head !

@Angelofdeath

Middle Aged Man In Lycra.

Ha ha! Thanks.

Although I’m not sure I look as cat woman amazing in Lycra as perhaps I once did either...

@IncandescentSilver he does sound like a predator. Funnily enough my Ex has a friend who sounds exactly like your guy. Not a trust fund, but living with his sister, has a house bought for him by his parents but he lets that out for a huge amount of money, his parents are very wealthy and own a mansion. So he doesn’t really have to work, but gets involved in Meditation retreats etc where he meets other women looking for inner peace, and is very sweet and friendly, but also ‘vulnerable’ and ‘shy’. But gosh I would not recommend him to any woman.

He also has very dysfunctional views of relationships, and now nearly 40, has not had a girlfriend for longer than 6 months. I don’t actually know if he cheats or not, but hanging around with my Ex I know that he’s covered for him, they share the same conversations about women. Two dysfunctional people.

Apologies am rambling. And am not putting down all shy men! However I do see many men (and to a lesser extent women) being excused for pretty crap social behaviour by being shy. It is a potential red flag, and worth being cautious about.

@BertiesLanding I trained as a Jungian and later as a Rogerian. I struggle with toxic masculinity and toxic femininity being bandied about in common parlance by anyone without significant therapeutic training and at least one year under supervision.

However you hit ny other sweet spot about midlife. There is a very rare Jungian theory and book he authored at 38 I believe called Metanoia. It’s quite short please find it and read it. The basic theory is that once we hit a certain age usually between 45-55 our physical being has changed so much due to natural ageing no diet exercise treatments etc can restore us to our former appearance fully as was possible at say 40 with hard work we could keep up the illusion of being younger. We are now confronted with a body we don’t recognise and doesn’t represent who we think we show to the world. Our mental and emotional state and viewpoints and capabilities are also changed and ways we used to cope or work don’t work anymore. Example a woman who was very beautiful in younger years was able to trade on her looks as leverage say to get a discount on a purchase or get let go on a speeding ticket. That’s no longer possible. So it’s a total destruction of the old self and a creation of a new self for the second half of life. The problems occur when people refuse to acknowledge things are different and continue to use old modalities which keep failing and this causes anger upset and confusion and remorse.
It’s out of print now but the seminal text on metanoia for women is called “the croning years”

they are surrounded by other middle aged men and their bikes with no woman in sight

Well, no. Obviously there are no women in sight.

The women are at home looking after the kids and posting on MN about his habitual absences whilst saying they won't say what The Hobby is as it would be too outing

[quote Gothamgirl1970]@BertiesLanding I trained as a Jungian and later as a Rogerian. I struggle with toxic masculinity and toxic femininity being bandied about in common parlance by anyone without significant therapeutic training and at least one year under supervision.

However you hit ny other sweet spot about midlife. There is a very rare Jungian theory and book he authored at 38 I believe called Metanoia. It’s quite short please find it and read it. The basic theory is that once we hit a certain age usually between 45-55 our physical being has changed so much due to natural ageing no diet exercise treatments etc can restore us to our former appearance fully as was possible at say 40 with hard work we could keep up the illusion of being younger. We are now confronted with a body we don’t recognise and doesn’t represent who we think we show to the world. Our mental and emotional state and viewpoints and capabilities are also changed and ways we used to cope or work don’t work anymore. Example a woman who was very beautiful in younger years was able to trade on her looks as leverage say to get a discount on a purchase or get let go on a speeding ticket. That’s no longer possible. So it’s a total destruction of the old self and a creation of a new self for the second half of life. The problems occur when people refuse to acknowledge things are different and continue to use old modalities which keep failing and this causes anger upset and confusion and remorse.
It’s out of print now but the seminal text on metanoia for women is called “the croning years”[/quote]
I have three years' training and I am supervised by a Jungian analyst. I work closely with the Death Mother archetype, I have been in therapy with a Jungian analyst for 10 years (in therapy for 25 years in total) so I do know a bit of what I speak, yes.

Metanoia sounds very interesting. Midlife is my focal point with my clients, and this may well be helpful, thank you.

@IncandescentSilver ha ha no I'm in West Yorkshire but can see why you might think I'm in Scotland! My username is partly a play on my actual surname and partly because I really like rabbits (of the twitchy-nosed floppy-eared furry variety, before anyone gets smutty!

@BertiesLanding I sent you a PM

Ok are we ready to hear the end of my old adventure

[quote Gothamgirl1970]@BertiesLanding I trained as a Jungian and later as a Rogerian. I struggle with toxic masculinity and toxic femininity being bandied about in common parlance by anyone without significant therapeutic training and at least one year under supervision.

However you hit ny other sweet spot about midlife. There is a very rare Jungian theory and book he authored at 38 I believe called Metanoia. It’s quite short please find it and read it. The basic theory is that once we hit a certain age usually between 45-55 our physical being has changed so much due to natural ageing no diet exercise treatments etc can restore us to our former appearance fully as was possible at say 40 with hard work we could keep up the illusion of being younger. We are now confronted with a body we don’t recognise and doesn’t represent who we think we show to the world. Our mental and emotional state and viewpoints and capabilities are also changed and ways we used to cope or work don’t work anymore. Example a woman who was very beautiful in younger years was able to trade on her looks as leverage say to get a discount on a purchase or get let go on a speeding ticket. That’s no longer possible. So it’s a total destruction of the old self and a creation of a new self for the second half of life. The problems occur when people refuse to acknowledge things are different and continue to use old modalities which keep failing and this causes anger upset and confusion and remorse.
It’s out of print now but the seminal text on metanoia for women is called “the croning years”[/quote]
Interesting.

What does this text have to say on the subject of women who (like me) never had looks to fall back on? I've been plain as a pikestaff all my life - a born 'best friend' if ever there was one - and now, aged 59, find myself coming into my own as all the 'pretty girls' are being reduced slowly but surely down to my level.

I had an OLD profile set up that was 3 pictures, 2 of which I was climbing rocks

It had a 3 word bio

It wasn't set up with finding a relationship in mind, it was set up to meet people for hook ups and I met a lot matches who were also there for the same thing.

Maybe those profiles are bringing in what those particular men are looking for

@Zaphodsotherhead hi and thanks for your message. It’s not just looks I used that as an example. In your young life you will have had a quality that was unique and exceptional that people knew about and whenever they needed that type of help you were their person. An example that you referenced was best friend. Perhaps you were the person everyone ran to in a crisis they had knowing that you could always be counted on to save the day and be discreet. You never said no and you never let anyone down. But dealing with other people’s disasters and being the fixer becomes a heavier and heavier load to carry as you age. Maybe you can no longer take a 2am phone call to drive 3 hours to pick up a friend who was just thrown out by his wife and let him stay with you for a month. You have to say sorry no. And your internal identity as the best friend and fixer is rolling in your mind that maybe you’ve failed. You can no longer be everyone’s saviour. And that brings the Metanoia of who am I if I am not the best friend fixer? What is my purpose? And you have to burn down the old self and create the new you that you will be for the rest of your life

@DancingCatGif

Men have no interest in pandering to women because most of them think they should be accepted just as they are.

Women feel they need to improve themselves, market themselves, lose weight, put on makeup, remove every hair from eyebrows down because they feel like they aren't enough.

Most men just go tada, here I am, fat, useless, ugly, sweaty, self obsessed, bike obsessed or whatever they are and some poor deluded woman will take them on anyway.

100% true. Starts in their teens I think too.

[quote Gothamgirl1970]@Zaphodsotherhead hi and thanks for your message. It’s not just looks I used that as an example. In your young life you will have had a quality that was unique and exceptional that people knew about and whenever they needed that type of help you were their person. An example that you referenced was best friend. Perhaps you were the person everyone ran to in a crisis they had knowing that you could always be counted on to save the day and be discreet. You never said no and you never let anyone down. But dealing with other people’s disasters and being the fixer becomes a heavier and heavier load to carry as you age. Maybe you can no longer take a 2am phone call to drive 3 hours to pick up a friend who was just thrown out by his wife and let him stay with you for a month. You have to say sorry no. And your internal identity as the best friend and fixer is rolling in your mind that maybe you’ve failed. You can no longer be everyone’s saviour. And that brings the Metanoia of who am I if I am not the best friend fixer? What is my purpose? And you have to burn down the old self and create the new you that you will be for the rest of your life[/quote]
No, i definitely wasn't that type of best friend!

I haven't so much as 'burned down' the old self as emerged like a hatching egg from that old self.

But I am finding the playing field has levelled far more as I age. It's no longer about looks, it's about other stuff. Plus, of course, that inbuilt invisibility that older women get.

I think the "feeling invisible" that women experience is actually a by-product of living a life that isn't their own, rather than an innate part of getting older.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm living a cracking life. By 'feeling invisible' I mean that there is no longer that need to look my best whenever I go out for fear that someone may see me and talk about what a mess I looked, or how I can't be managing because my hair is unbrushed and I'm not wearing makeup.

I can make myself very very visible if the need is there. But I enjoy the lack of pressure otherwise.

@Zaphodsotherhead

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm living a cracking life. By 'feeling invisible' I mean that there is no longer that need to look my best whenever I go out for fear that someone may see me and talk about what a mess I looked, or how I can't be managing because my hair is unbrushed and I'm not wearing makeup.

I can make myself very very visible if the need is there. But I enjoy the lack of pressure otherwise.

Got it! Thanks for clarifying. Yes, it's rather freeing when there's no need to pander to the male gaze.