If you can do your job from home then it can be done from India...

[Bewareoftheblob]

This is what my brother has been told by his employers. He works in a small office in a city centre and can work remotely. He admits that their efficiency, especially in terms of the quality of customer service, has been compromised by the team working from home.

They've all been told to go back to the office from mid September, which he is reluctant to do, mainly because he dislikes the commute and has enjoyed being at home with his wife and toddler.

When he (and, I think, some other team members) requested an extension to working from home, they were told in no uncertain terms to get back in to the office, and that they should be wary because 'if you can do your job from home, it can probably be done from India', which my brother has taken as a threat of redundancy.

They were also asked if they didn't feel guilty about the impact they were having on the economy and other people's livelihood - I assume they meant transport/Costa/Pret etc. They were asked to have more of a community spirit. It's a pretty informal place, not very 'corporate' which is why I assume it's been worded in this way!

What do you think? I'm torn to be honest, I totally understand why my brother wants to work from home, but whilst I don't think his company expressed themselves very well, I can see their point too.

So I suppose it's more are they being unreasonable rather than am I being unreasonable!

You say he’s been enjoying being at home with his wife and toddler. That makes it sound like he isn’t really “working” as he should.

DH is WFH - he always did for a couple if days per week but when lockdown started it became full time and he’s hoping that it might be permanent with a visit to the office once or twice a month. BUT he isn’t spending time with me or DS during his working hours. If productivity isn’t 100% then you can’t blame the employer for wanting do do something about it.

At the end of the day a business isn't a charity. You're paid to do a day's work, efficiently and making sure it doesn't cause problems for the rest of the team or clients. If the productivity is causing complaints from customers then something needs to shift.

However, there are things that businesses need to be very careful about.

1. Covid hasn't gone. We will have lockdowns, bans on travelling to certain areas, people developing symptoms so businesses having to close at a moment's notice. The structure still has to be in place to say 'right, everyone is back to WFH from tomorrow'. Businesses can't become short sighted and assume 'back means back for good' - it doesn't and it won't until we've worked out how life works with Covid in place. So threatening outsourcing is a bit ridiculous when the boss will have to swallow his/her words potentially in a couple of months when that area gets a blip and a local lockdown order.

2. Many companies are now beginning to advertise WFH positions. If you alienate your good employees whilst chivvying up your bad ones, they'll be the first to walk. Good employees are in demand - bad ones aren't and, as a company, you don't want to be lumbered with the bad ones. So incentivising WFH may be the answer - my DH work(ed) away from home during the week. He's now WFH. His productivity hasn't dropped - his company has acknowledged that some areas of the business are outdoing their previous work effort. So the company has changed the policy to allow people to ask to WFH - some of it may be 2-4 days a week, some are asking for one week in the office/one week at home. Because the company wants to keep its good people. But WFH is only agreed if the job can be done as effectively from home - otherwise the request is rejected. Which is fair enough. People are proving they can do this because they don't want that request rejected when the time comes.

3. As for the small businesses that are suffering...Johnson could encourage those people who are WFH to go to their local coffee shops/cafes and work there; he could have a campaign of 'take a break, use your local high street'. It won't help the city centre ones (although some people do live in the cities).

At the end of it all my mindset is 'do I want to queue up at a station outlet or a local cafe to get a cup of coffee and a croissant in the morning. Or buy an expensive sandwich in the same manner at lunch time?' My answer is I'm avoid all those places at the moment. I have to take the risk to get on transport, to get to work. I have no choice.
But when I do have a choice, I avoid. I don't have to buy a coffee. I can bring something in from home.

If that means small businesses have to think outside the box (like delivery services) then that's what they will have to do. Like companies, I'm not a charity either and I won't put myself at risk if I don't have to - and coffee etc is not worth my health I'm afraid.

As for transport. The government don't know if they're upside down or right way up on that subject. 'Get back to work, but keep social distancing...on trains or buses where you're normally cheek by jowl with people'. 'Try to stagger your hours, but don't work from home because Ada's cafe needs your cash' and 'Use public transport to keep it going .... but you can only get 1/3 of people on it so you won't mind waiting for the next three buses in the middle of winter will you ... because it's all for the good of the economy, there's a good citizen'.

He does work from the dining table, but it's like a living/dining room and pretty small. I imagine it's difficult to concentrate and I know he did have a complaint about toddler/tv noise when he was on calls.

Regarding him not being the norm - I'm sure he isn't, but I have had some piss-poor customer service from companies who are blaming their inadequacies on staff working from home or even the more generalised 'because of Covid'.

The employers haven't expressed this well but these two statements stand out to me

He admits that their efficiency, especially in terms of the quality of customer service, has been compromised by the team working from home.

and

he is reluctant to return, mainly because he dislikes the commute and has enjoyed being at home with his wife and toddler.

If the team are not performing their jobs properly at home - they need to return to the office.
Someone's desire to avoid their commute, or spend more time with his family (which suggests that he's not giving 100% during working hours) is not an argument for home working.

I'm appalled at how many people seem to think that they are entitled to WFH just because

Costa and Pret may be struggling but my local shops, many of which were on the verge of closing pre-lockdown are doing really well. I totally reject the "if you can work from home, your job can be done in India" line. That's not true for most businesses.

I think a lot of employers will be looking at a more mixed model, with more working from home and one or two contact days in the office.

If city centres becoming ghost towns become a problem, maybe some good quality housing in city centres could be the answer?

If productivity WFH is down they need to address why and put performance plans in place, or get staff back in.

The India thing is nonsense. If his customers are complaining about delays, they’ll certainly be complaining about robotic conversations with someone reading from a script in India!

Numerous companies are continuing WFH either full time or part time and city/town centre cafes etc will suffer. It’s so unfortunate - but unavoidable. The cafe in my residential suburb on the other hand, is doing very well via people WFH. The human cost of redundancy and business failure in
central locations is very sad indeed, but things change, there are losers and gainers, and that’s just the way it is.

The job is not being done as well from home so of course it is reasonable for the employer to want them back in. If your brother had medical issues I am sure he might be accommodated, but enjoying spending time at home while doing a poorer job is not really going to cut it. They are being honest with him so he should take note and get back to work. This is assuming they are following appropriate Covid precautions in the office.

It sounds like an off the cuff (unprofessional) remark about outsourcing to show that he needs to be back at work rather than a serious idea.

We outsource to India and Eastern European countries at work and it's a bit of a nightmare as the level of English is not high enough for the complicated reports they write so even the edited end product sounds a bit awkward. It is hard to feedback and there is a lot of defensiveness to any criticism!!!

I prefer being at work and find it easier to work in the office as I have access to printers, scanners, bigger computer screen, faster network etc. My office are giving us the choice really. We are encouraged to work out a rota so that there are not too many in at once and we can socially distance but if someone doesn't want to go in they can.

I personally think there are a lot of people where I work going a bit incommunicado at home and blaming it on the internet and other stuff. I am finding it frustrating as it is harder to get things done and have been getting behind in certain areas. However, returning to the office is not that useful as the people that are hard to pin down are choosing to work from home!!

As someone who works in development of both onshore and offshore call centres, I would say it's probably an idle threat, but it might not be so idle if productivity doesn't increase.

There are benefits and drawbacks to Indian call centres. Not least having to bus female staff back home as to cover our opening hours they work into the night which means it's not safe for them to get home (not relevant to this but thought I'd share).

@Bewareoftheblob

He does work from the dining table, but it's like a living/dining room and pretty small. I imagine it's difficult to concentrate and I know he did have a complaint about toddler/tv noise when he was on calls.

Regarding him not being the norm - I'm sure he isn't, but I have had some piss-poor customer service from companies who are blaming their inadequacies on staff working from home or even the more generalised 'because of Covid'.

Yep that’s exactly what my DH is doing everyday.... We’ve reorganised ourselves so he can have some relative quietness. He is putting up with a higher level of noise (even though as he was working in a big open place office, think 150 people) noise has always been there anyway....

The TV etc... is an excuse sorry.

Of course there is. However, when you are working, you need to be working and clearly that is not what has been happening with the team the OP is talking about

There should however by a bit of leeway for people maybe not being as productive in the middle of a massive an unprecedented public health crisis. Some may have been ill themselves or have lost relatives. The answer is not necessarily "Get back to work!" Most of us have never stopped working or stopping working has not been our choice. Maybe the employers could manage working from home better.

I worked for BT when they were migrating services to India, it was awful, really impacted my role, revenues and customer sat. I think forms should really consider if they want to lose customers by doing this.

As for transport. The government don't know if they're upside down or right way up on that subject.

But that's because of the variation in passenger numbers. Some trains are at or over safe capacity yet others are carrying nothing but fresh air. There can't be a "one size fits all" message. In some areas, more people could easily and safely travel by public transport - in other areas it's already at "unsafe" levels. So it really is down to the passenger themselves to risk assess their own route. Not sure how you could expect the government to do anything else really other than encourage social distancing where possible. Even in the same geographical area, such as London Underground, some lines are pretty empty whilst others are full.

Efficiency/quality of customer service has been compromised by the team working from home, and his only reasons for not wanting to go back are his dislike of the commute and enjoying being at home with his wife and toddler.

He's being U. Obviously.

WFH is great for some people, in some roles. But there are also roles where it doesn’t really work well and some people that unfortunately aren’t productive unless management is around. It’s great to spend more time at home and cut the commute but employers won’t allow if you’re not actually going to work.

In terms of offshoring, it’s a possibility. A lot of people on this thread have talked about call centres but many firms are switching to digital platforms and channels with more robo advice/help and secure messages which could be done anywhere in the world and don’t require anyone to speak. And arguably having a 24 hrs web chat (driven by customer expectations) is likely to make firms think about a degree of offshoring rather than just pay uk staff.

Other things likely to happen are employers not offering pay rises and bonuses over the next couple of years as times are tough and they know employees are saving money being at home. In the winter when heating and electricity bills start to increase some people may think about returning to office as suddenly it gets expensive to be at home and few employers are going to foot the bill.

Then there’s the storing up of RSI/bad back claims for wfh. Employers might start to be more risk averse e.g. if you don’t have a proper desk or chair you can’t work from home due to the risk of an employee making a claim. Obvious short term wfh in a pandemic was a must, but longer term many firms won’t want to risk a claim and take on risk assessing employees homes.

With plenty of people unemployed it becomes an employers market. Don’t like it leave....etc

I would go back in one day a week but I’ve been told I can’t as I’m pregnant and use public transport to get there. I told work I was pregnant earlier than I would normally.

I still do the same amount of work but I get to lie in bed until 0830 and I don’t have to carry around my laptop bag. Being pregnant, that’s win win for me!

Your brother sounds a bit of an idiot. I'm going back in 3 days a week and I didn't bat an eyelid. His sense of entitlement is extraordinary, especially as he's been less productive.

They've all been told to go back to the office from mid September, which he is reluctant to do, mainly because he dislikes the commute and has enjoyed being at home with his wife and toddler.

Get him to make a formal flexible working request to WFH permanently for the above reasons.

He will rightly be handed his arse in his hands.

I think most people ( and employers ) have sympathy for

People who have been shielding
People with health problems who are vulnerable
People who have been trying to work from home with babies / toddlers and no childcare / those who are trying to home school
People with no outdoor space in the summer in strict lockdown
People who have worked shifts at home to get their work done AND care for their own kids / elderly relatives
People who have tried really hard to be as productive as possible at home and keep their Jobs

I think there’s a LOT Less sympathy for Young able bodied men who like doing less work at home for the same money and enjoy having their wife around to make them lunch / coffee and chat to them But expect their wife to keep the baby / child silent and not use the kitchen/ living room for 6 hours a day.

If he wanted to continue working from home then he should have shown his employers that he could do his job just as well.

Instead he's done what sounds like half a job. He only has himself to blame. (Obviously the same for all of them)

I’m more worried about automation

Yes I would also say AI is the biggest threat - way beyond covid or Brexit.

He's admitted there was a lack of service without being in the office unless they provided a way to fix that, then I can understand the requirement to be back in the office for now.

But that comment was ridiculous. Not every job can be outsourced by a long shot. Many companies that do so, fail and end up coming back to the UK, I have personal experience of this. I also have experience of hiring offshore for resource to cover EMEA and it really is not that simple unless you're looking for call center/specific technical resources etc.

I think the company was unprofessional saying that but i also think your brother sounds a bit spoilt and entitled. For gods sake we are about to have a massive employment crisis he should be raring to get back to the office and show his employer he is a dynamic, hard working member of the team

Thanks for the comments everyone. I know that bro is BU and he hasn't got a leg to stand on. He knows that too I think, but he's got used to a more comfortable life!

My AIBU was more around the company's stance in terms of the threat of moving jobs overseas and the need to support other jobs. Some really interesting comments on those elements too.

GreyGardens88 - no matter how “hard working or dynamic” a person is, an employer would have no qualms about making them redundant.

@VettiyaIruken

If he wanted to continue working from home then he should have shown his employers that he could do his job just as well.

Instead he's done what sounds like half a job. He only has himself to blame. (Obviously the same for all of them)

Well said, fully agree. For all those who've been eager to work from home, the last few months have been an ideal opportunity to prove to their bosses that it would actually work.

If productivity/efficiency has fallen, and customer complaints risen, then it kind of proves that WFH isn't so brilliant for the employer/customer after all.