If you can do your job from home then it can be done from India...

[Bewareoftheblob]

This is what my brother has been told by his employers. He works in a small office in a city centre and can work remotely. He admits that their efficiency, especially in terms of the quality of customer service, has been compromised by the team working from home.

They've all been told to go back to the office from mid September, which he is reluctant to do, mainly because he dislikes the commute and has enjoyed being at home with his wife and toddler.

When he (and, I think, some other team members) requested an extension to working from home, they were told in no uncertain terms to get back in to the office, and that they should be wary because 'if you can do your job from home, it can probably be done from India', which my brother has taken as a threat of redundancy.

They were also asked if they didn't feel guilty about the impact they were having on the economy and other people's livelihood - I assume they meant transport/Costa/Pret etc. They were asked to have more of a community spirit. It's a pretty informal place, not very 'corporate' which is why I assume it's been worded in this way!

What do you think? I'm torn to be honest, I totally understand why my brother wants to work from home, but whilst I don't think his company expressed themselves very well, I can see their point too.

So I suppose it's more are they being unreasonable rather than am I being unreasonable!

how is it that thousands of Indians, Poles and other nationalities work successfully in offices and other workplaces across Britain?

The only “Indians, Poles and other nationalities” I have come across in offices are ones who speak perfectly good clear English and there is no problem understanding them or having a complex discussion.

That’s very different to experiences I’ve had with work outsourced to another country. Eg. trying to deal with TalkTalk customer or technical support can be horrendous. I can’t be the only one that finds that.

The were talking about this on the radio. There is an issue if employers have realised jobs can be done from home, then they might outsource those jobs to cheaper staff abroad.

If they are less productive from home, the job obviously can’t be done from home!

So that’s why they have to go back in.

If he “liked being at home with wife and toddler”, and colleagues felt the same, they should have made sure productivity stayed up.

The company are being entirely reasonable and we should expect more of this. It’s not justified anymore, we aren’t being advised to wfh and it’s meaning job losses for others because some are taking advantage of this situation. It’s not a high risk situation anymore. Get back to work unless you’re in a particularly at risk group. Others are suffering because some don’t want to commute. People delivering all your parcels from online orders have been working this whole time. Why does your brother think he’s so special?

But no it doesn’t necessarily mean it can be done from India. Many jobs require native-language standard English, an awareness of U.K. or even local culture and / or a U.K. (or one of the U.K. nationalities) specific qualification.

Turning it on it's head, it's quite possible that your brother could do his job from India. I have people in my team (normally all in the UK) working from all over Europe at the moment.

But it is the person that is important in most office jobs, not the location.

Equally (in an industry where we often offshore work), I have worked with some amazing people from India who were absolutely the right person for the job. Some of them later moved to UK and Germany, some of them stayed in India.

so is having to commute for 2 or 3 hours a day and have your mental health seriously suffering from working in an office

If you did it before, no excuse not to do so now unless you like taking advantage and don’t care about those losing their jobs. Covid is currently less risky than the flu for most of us.

I think a balance could be struck - or two days wFH, 3 days in the office.

I wouldn’t be happy with 3 days in the office. Not now, not having found a different way. I would be willing to go back one or two days a week to the office but not happy about it. I just don’t want to waste any more of my life. I can do my job at home though I appreciate not everyone can.

Ultimately I may have no choice come January, but I will certainly be looking for a new job if that is the case.

This has been happening in certain roles for a number of years tbh.
I used to work in training / recruitment in a worldwide industry. Was made redundant whilst on mat leave and my job was given to someone in manila.

@Dontmakemegoback2office

how is it that thousands of Indians, Poles and other nationalities work successfully in offices and other workplaces across Britain?

The only “Indians, Poles and other nationalities” I have come across in offices are ones who speak perfectly good clear English and there is no problem understanding them or having a complex discussion.

That’s very different to experiences I’ve had with work outsourced to another country. Eg. trying to deal with TalkTalk customer or technical support can be horrendous. I can’t be the only one that finds that.

But, on the other hand, "some" people in British call centres also have strong foreign or regional accents too and are sometimes hard to talk to. Not everyone has a clear, easy to understand, accent just because they live in the UK. Even face to face conversations can be difficult with strong accents.

Ultimately I may have no choice come January, but I will certainly be looking for a new job if that is the case.

I think there will be a lot of movement in the job market in the next few years. Not just with firms closing and new ones opening, but also with the mismatch of firms and their staff either wanting or not wanting WFH. There could be quite a movement in both directions until an equilibrium is reached again.

@MillyMollyFarmer

I don't think he thinks he is special. I think he's just chancing his arm to see what he can get away with.

Of course they're being unreasonable. I wouldn't work somewhere that treated their staff like that out if choice. I have heard a lot of complaints recently that bosses are using the current crisis to throw their weight about....a lot of ' someone else could have thus job' for any sort of questioning of the line. It stinks.

Well then he’s selfish. What a time to ‘see what you can get away with’. I hate to think of the rise in homelessness when those on low incomes lose their jobs because the middle class don’t want to commute anymore.

He admits that their efficiency, especially in terms of the quality of customer service, has been compromised by the team working from home

This is the key bit of information. If wfh had gone seamlessly, he would have a right to challenge the request to return to the office. But the employer is getting less for their money if employees are not working as hard. So yeah, might as well outsource to India.

a lot of ' someone else could have thus job' for any sort of questioning of the line. It stinks.

Someone else could though. Lots of people are unemployed. If you like a quiet life at home, start a business and do that. Give your job to someone that actually wants to go to it

@MillyMollyFarmer

so is having to commute for 2 or 3 hours a day and have your mental health seriously suffering from working in an office

If you did it before, no excuse not to do so now unless you like taking advantage and don’t care about those losing their jobs. Covid is currently less risky than the flu for most of us.

You are missing the point.

Covid has proven for many that WFH is a perfectly viable option, and many businesses have accepted the concept, financed the set ups and it's a done thing. The lockdown has also proven that it's perfectly possible to recruit, employ and train new staff without the need for an office.

It's a very good thing for most people and it is a big improvement for society in general.

Yes, a handful of workers might not like it, but It doesn't really matter, it IS happening (actually, it has already happened...)

SOME people might lose their jobs, some businesses will have to adapt, but that's life and that's progress. Of course people should take advantage! It was only a matter of time, technology had made all this possible, it's time we use it.

It's not about Covid only anymore. The risk is still there so any business who can function would be crazy not to plan for further restrictions and outbreaks anyway.

I think if you are told that by your employer then you need to listen. If I was your brother idiot be getting back ASAP.

I’m keen to go back to the office but not allowed. I’m confident my job can’t be done from India but I still want to go back.

My company offshored a lot of technical roles like software development, network engineering etc. They have brought a lot back to the U.K.
It didn't work out as well as they hoped, because the subcontractors had such a high turnover of staff. And they realised it wasn't such a good idea to effectively export your expertise.
As for the pret problem, someone on Twitter has suggested they buy a fleet of ice cream vans and sell to the homeworkers in the suburbs!

@MillyMollyFarmer

a lot of ' someone else could have thus job' for any sort of questioning of the line. It stinks.

Someone else could though. Lots of people are unemployed. If you like a quiet life at home, start a business and do that. Give your job to someone that actually wants to go to it

There always will be jobs requiring people-facing staff, or staff on site. You are free to find one.

There's absolutely no valid reason why businesses can't work more efficiently, workers can have a better quality of life and work from home, when the business permits it.

There are always arguments about change. It doesn't stop progress happening.

@IcedPurple

Deliver to homes. They likely won't have any local businesses in the high street anymore. I know of several that have given up their shop and only work from home now, delivering their food.

A coffee costs a few quid. Add in a pastry and that's still probably not much more than a fiver. Going from home to home for a few quid a pop is not a viable business model. A cafe could not afford city centre rates deliving 3 quid coffees to homes in the suburbs. Plus, there are cafes in most high streets so why would anyone bother getting a cold styrofoam coffee delivered from Costa in the town centre?

I've had coffee brewed on my doorstep throughout lockdown. £13 once a week for two coffees and cakes, and he's there for five minutes for me, and usually a queue of suburban passers-by.

His service is so popular that he sells out of slots on Mondays and Fridays, operating 9-4. Let's say £36/hour, times, leaving a lunch hour and moving between bookings. About £216 a day before costs - and that's assuming a fairly low rate of bookings, when I know he's really busy.

And he doesn't even do sandwiches.

SOME people might lose their jobs, some businesses will have to adapt, but that's life and that's progress. Of course people should take advantage! It was only a matter of time, technology had made all this possible, it's time we use it.

No, not some, millions. Entire industries will struggle. It’s not a cultural shift, they happen over time and allow adjustments without economic collapse. What happening now is not sustainable or beneficial for millions of people. But I don’t expect people with cosy lives to care about all those people you never noticed before, cleaning your offices, your streets, driving the train or bus, making your tea or coffee, selling you a paper... those people and industries won’t have time to adapt. But nevermind, as long as people don’t need to commute and can stay home with their families, we can always just blame the nasty Tories for our lazy selfish behaviour. We can even blame them for most of the country being fat and at risk of these diseases. Win win.

[quote Bewareoftheblob]@Newjeansrippedjeans I think it's more that customer service is not up to standard. They're getting complaints about responses to customers not being as timely/efficient as they used to be.[/quote]
Then I don’t blame the company for getting them back in.

I've WFH since July 2019. It works for my role. My DH is now doing same and while it's working in the short-term there's no way it could last long term.

However I think for those roles that can WFH and those people who will still be productive this is an exciting opportunity. Less commuting is SO MUCH better for the environment. Office spaces could become housing - saving green field sites (again so much better for the environment).

Costa and Pret could/should adapt their business model to survive.

A few hot desking hubs (suitably sanitised) in some useful locations and we could really make a positive change. We could create jobs not lose them.

OP I think your brother could arrange a day a week at home. That might help.

MillyMollyFarmer
of course it's sustainable, and most of these industries are ALREADY adapting. If nothing else, most people can't afford to wait patiently

The same services will be needed, just differently and in different areas. People will spend the same, just differently and for one area that is going down, another will go up.

You sound more jealous than anything - surely it would benefit everybody and the entire economy if these "cushy workers" could spend their time and money in their local high street instead of wasting these hours commuting, or at best shopping online...

We need the pandemic to end, we need restrictions not to be needed anymore, but we do not need to go back to the way things were. We are lucky the pandemic had at least a few positives.