Who is looking at increased wfh long term?

[jorgeous]

Hello all,

The plan at both mine & DHs company was to go in on a rota basis from September. This is still going to happen but far less frequently than we anticipated eg 4 days a month in the office. Plus it's completely voluntary. Companies are making noises about this becoming the norm, reducing HQ space & competitors are acting similar & some have made the switch.
There are lots of benefits to wfh although I do like the social aspect of the office. However because we are not allowed meetings of more than 2 people, gyms, canteens, coffee stations etc are all closed very few are coming back so there is little social aspect.
If this is the norm we really need to rethink our home environment & have a proper office for both of us.
I feel a little sad tbh, anyone else in the same boat?

So "yet" did mean all of that? Ok...And even though you didn't claim to know @Parker231 individual circumstances better then she did, you seem to be reiterating that you do....

Stop deflecting & you certainly sound ruffled. I've never said that work couldn't possibly be outsourced, it already is. I already said that upthread, didn't I?

If you want a debate about outsourcing then you probably need to offer a bit more to the debate then "yet", don't you think?

If WFH is just as efficient as going into the office, as many here insist, then employers may well ask themselves why they are employing someone in high-wage Britain when they could get someone from Poland or Hungary to do the job equally well for much less money. Not saying it will definitely happen, and I hope it doesn't, but I think it's naive to not even consider the possibility.

I agree with this. (even though poster is being slated)

And for ooster’s talking cultural fit / denigrating India, it’s not necessarily about offshoring to low cost destinations but to lowER cost

Given how super duper hunky dory working from home is - and no perceived lack of efficiency, and how there is nothing face to face contact can do that Microsoft Teams can do, The days of the ‘London’ office may be doomed (executives, decision makes and key personnel apart to retain tax establishment).

It’s not what I wNt, I fear it may accelerate an existing trend

It's not fair but I don't think the Magic Circle solicitor on 700k reducing his days in the office & his commute from Sevenoaks is going to take that much of hit except maybe tax wise.

Bingo, do people really think these jobs are going to be affected? These people already wfh some of the time.

@Aridane I'm not slating the poster for that point however as I said upthread many people already wfh 100% of the time & have high salaries still. Plus lots of people who earn well in London & the SE already wfh part of the time. It's not as simple are more wfh = more offshoring. Of course it is a possibility like it was pre Covid.

@looperb - I can only speak for the trends I see at an industry level in financial services - where sadly (for me) the juggernaut is out of the station (rather than genie out of the bottle) on offshoring

And to a certain extent it really is that simple - is expensive people can work from home with zero drop in productivity, so can experienced qualified people in cheaper jurisdictions. I really wish this weren’t the case

I work in finance & DH is in law & it's not something we really see.

Lucky lucky you

And for ooster’s talking cultural fit / denigrating India, it’s not necessarily about offshoring to low cost destinations but to lowER cost

Yes, I've been on a few of these discussions, and you repeatedly see the argument that 'Well, lots of companies moved their call centres to India and it didn't work out, so that means no jobs will ever be outsourced'.

Call centres require a very high level of linguistic and cultural proficiency, so it's not surprising that outsourcing them was not a great success. However, many back office jobs do not come with such requirements and India isn't the only candidate for outsourcing. There are many highly competent people in Eastern Europe with very good English language skills who'd be prepared to work for a lot less than a British worker, and it's only one or two time zones away. If geographic location is no longer considered important, it's naive to assume some employers won't seriously consider this possibility.

@IcedPurple - yes, we use Eastern Europe a lot. Their skill sets , aprtitude and attitude put a number of head office ‘key personnel’ to shame

Admittedly neither of our work places are looking at 100% wfh just an increase & they have mooted the idea of a smaller office & localised hubs. Personally I like the mix of both & miss my colleagues!

We are also not against relocating in the UK or abroad, a salary drop doesn't necessarily mean a lower standard of living.

What is your company doing @Aridane & are you worried about your role?

Not and option for a few months yet, I'm negotiating to be primarily WFH, maybe a couple of days a month in the office when it reopens.
My role is mostly liasing with people based around the UK, not in the head office, so no real point. I'd like to recommence visits to other locations at some point - occasional 1:1 physical meetings probably would be better than zoom.

@looperb

Admittedly neither of our work places are looking at 100% wfh just an increase & they have mooted the idea of a smaller office & localised hubs. Personally I like the mix of both & miss my colleagues!

We are also not against relocating in the UK or abroad, a salary drop doesn't necessarily mean a lower standard of living.

But it looks like you are still assuming that you personally will keep your job, that you may move to another area or abroad, even with a lower salary. What is perhaps equally likely is that the job itself moves to another cheaper area or abroad, but you don’t go with it.

No if I moved abroad I wouldn't assume I would keep the same role, like I said our role requires some office time so how would that work? It was more the point that because of Brexit we were already thinking about it.

@IcedPurple

This is the response I called gleeful, all I can see is the word yet? Was I met to understand that "yet" actually meant "If you think that a possible move to widespread, long-term WFH is absolutely guaranteed not to result in any jobs being outsourced to cheaper economies, and that simply pointing out this possibiity"?

You've cut my response short, but yes, I did think people would understand that my point was that what is true now may not be true a year or 5 years from now. I didn't think that needed spelling out, but maybe I was wrong.

* I don't see the point in any futher discussion with you.
Or do you mean if you're not prepared to be challenged on a point you give up?*

Except you and your emoticons haven't really 'challenged' me. You simply accused me of being 'gleeful' and when I elaborated on my post you've just been droning on about nothing really. If you do want to actually challenge my point about the possibility of work being outsourced, by all means do so as I'd be very happy to be wrong on this. Otherwise, I don't really see the point.

It's just your turn now - was mine - will be someone else next

It was a separate point, pre Covid I had friends who moved to Manchester, Bristol & Edinburgh for new roles. They were offered less money but had a better standard of living. A good standard of living in London is often more about if & when you got on the property ladder than just your salary.

@VivaMiltonKeynes If you live in MK I understand why you would be gleeful about others peoples misfortune!

[quote devilslittlehelper]@VivaMiltonKeynes If you live in MK I understand why you would be gleeful about others peoples misfortune! [/quote]
I don't ! Try again

I manage a small team of 10 and we have been told that we will be allowed in the office for one 'collaboration day' per month. I am pretty gutted, especially for my 3 admin staff.

But they won’t have a better standard of living in Bristol if they become unemployed because their company has now realised their job can be done cheaper and just as well in Hungary, or the US, or South Africa. Brexit complicates things and makes it easier and more effective now for companies not to have any / or minimal U.K. employees.

was that to me @daisypond? he moved pre Covid to another GP role. I think he'll be fine.

I think if we are looking at a situation where ALL jobs move abroad that it's a different matter, who will pay taxes & fund public services?

Are you worried about your job @daisypond?

@IcedPurple are you worried about your role offshoring?

[quote looperb]@IcedPurple are you worried about your role offshoring? [/quote]
Not sure why you're asking me this question, but since you do ask, the answer is 'Not particularly'.

I'm a university tutor and while I have been WFH for the past few months, opinion among staff and students is almost unanimous that online 'teaching' is grim and only useful as an emergency measure. So we hope to be back face-to-face as soon as it's deemed safe, whenever that may be. There are many things to worry about with regard to university jobs, but outsourcing isn't foremost among them, at least not at the moment.

That being said, I am not at all complacent, and just as nobody imagined we'd be in this situation a year ago, who really has a clue what the future might hold?