...to think this is vile behaviour from a vet?

[ReluctantRenegade]

Hi all,

I'm very upset as I type this and desperately need some advice. The situation is my cat's 17 and has a few chronic health conditions including kidney (stage 2 at last blood analysis a few months ago) and heart disease. He had two seizures about a week ago which I think were caused by the hot weather as he was struggling to keep cool despite our best efforts. He has had one seizure before several months ago so three in total.

I took him to the vets today and they recommended having him put down because of the combination of these various illnesses which I can understand as on paper it looks bad but they don't live with him so aren't getting the full picture. I know they're professionals but they don't see him eating, sleeping and enjoying getting affection from his owners who've loved and cared for him for 17 years so they're just looking at him as a list of symptoms rather than as a living entity.

Anyway, I said to the vet putting him to sleep has been something that's on my mind but he has improved in some ways now he is taking diuretics for the heart disease. Obviously the seizures were nasty to witness and probably awful for him and he was quite disoriented following this but this is improving now and he hasn't had further seizures since the weather has cooled down.

What disgusted me however and made me feel utterly powerless and on my own with regards to his care is she said they could put him down then and there at the appointment even though he was just booked in for a check-up so naturally I refused as it seemed too abrupt and I don't think he is suffering to the extent he needs to be put down immediately. Of course there is an element of suffering with any chronic health condition but people suffer with multiple ailments and aren't sent to their deaths, their conditions are managed.

What really has upset me though other than their haste to end his life is the vet would only give me enough diuretic medication for him for the next week as she said she thinks he needs to be put down within the next week. Is this even allowed? She thinks he is suffering but is going to make him suffer more by not authorising medication to keep him comfortable for his time left in the world, whether that be weeks or months? AIBU or is this highly unethical of her to refuse to re-prescribe medication for him?

Lastly, this vets is subsidised so I think there's an element of it being cheaper for them to have him die than treating him there and have heard other owners disagree with this practice's 'recommendation' to put their pets to sleep. I pay what I can afford but it's cheaper than a standard vets so I think this is probably relevant to their eagerness to put animals down.

I have two lovely cats myself and I am with your vet. Your cat can't tell you how much pain they are in. They may look better/being more affectionate on the out but you really cannot tell.

people suffer with multiple ailments and aren't sent to their deaths, their conditions are managed

People have been fighting for YEARS to be able to change this. Not all conditions are 'managed'. Lots of people die incredibly slowly and painfully, that could be prevented if dignified euthanasia was legal.

I’m sure this has been said already...your cat is dying, i know it’s so hard to accept but it’s better too soon than too late. You need to do what’s best for the cat, not for you.

I went through similar with my beloved cat a few years ago - you just want more time, it’s awful but once it’s done you will feel a huge sense of relief that he/she is no longer suffering.

My cat was peaceful and happy when he went and I truly believe it was what he ultimately wanted.

See another vet.
Maybe it is in your cats best interests to be put to sleep, but I think vets need to be more understanding and empathetic, and your current vet doesn't seem to be.
So see someone else who will give you all the information in a kind way, and who helps you make the decision that's best for your cat but also recognises how difficult this is for you.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

Would all the posters pressurising OP to euthanise pressure her for or against an abortion?

No, because if a fetus was inviable and not going to survive gestation, the equivalent of a terminally ill cat that is not going to get better and faces continually diminishing quality of life, then the doctors would abort in any case and there would be a decision to 'pressure' for.

The degree of emotional blackmail is nauseating

Perhaps if you're entirely cognitively dissonant and have a completely warped set of ethics.

Being pressured to abort is comparable to being pressured to euthanise, insofar as both situations pertain to endIng the life of something.

Abortion is complicated by the age of the foetus and individual belief structure of what a foetus is, but in both situations you decide whether this thing has life or it doesn’t.

I’m also a vet, and just wanted to echo the comments of lots of the other posters.

I’ve had similar conversations to what it sounds like your vet has discussed with you on numerous occasions with many many clients. Yes, ultimately, you know your pet best, but seeing it every day often makes it difficult to see changes as it happens do gradually.

many owners do not seem to appreciate, or be aware of, some of the more subtle signs of pain and discomfort. If I had a pound for every time a client had told me their limping pet is not in pain, I could probably retire! Apart from a very few causes of ‘functional’ lameness, an animal limps because something is hurting, not for anything other reason! But yet people still insist a limping animal ‘isn’t in any pain’. In a similar vein, people who think their cat purring is happy (sometime, but not always). Or the owner who insists on talking an animal in respiratory distress home, and finds it in the morning ‘passed peacefully away overnight’, when in reality it’s drowned to death overnight - but because the owner wasn’t there they assume it was a lovely peaceful slipping away overnight. I could go on....in reality, owners often have a very limited understanding of the implications of how their pets illness will be making their pet feel, or the progression of it, and people hang onto to the ‘he’s still going for walks’ or ‘she’s still eating’ when in many cases the quality of life is long gone.

Animals live in the here and now. Quality over quantity. They don’t know if they will be here tomorrow, next week, or next year. They know if they are happy, pain free, don’t feel ill, nauseous etc today. That’s the important bit of them.

As the other vets posting have already said, vets have an obligation to uphold animal welfare above all else. Whilst I don’t like upsetting owners, being blunt with them, giving them bad news, suggesting euthanasia etc, ultimately my focus has to be on the animal, I am their voice and their advocate, and I will always, always, so that to the best of my ability whatever that means an owner thinks of me. If an owner disagrees, they are always more than welcome to seek a second opinion, but I will never stop pushing, advising, explaining what I feel is the kindest and most appropriate thing for the animal - they are my focus, not the owner.

So sorry OP. My cat is 15 yrs and I am not looking forward to having to make this decision.
I have experience of a vet trying to prolong our other cat’s life when she was clearly in a lot of discomfort. The cat had a growth coming out of her stomach. The vet wanted to do blood tests and scans on her. This cat was in her 20s. I knew it was time to let her go. Initially this vet wanted to put her on palliative care but eventually agreed with me.
I stayed with the cat, actually I held her, whilst I apologised to her for letting her go. It’s a horrible decision to make.

TatianaBis it is in no way comparable and you are disgusting. "Ending the life of something" are you fucking deranged comparing a human to a cat never mind calling both a thing!

The vet is concerned with the welfare of the cat. I'm sorry your cat is at the end of its life, OP. However, I don't think it's fair to blame the vet for the sadness and anger you feel about the cat's situation.

Oh please op listen to your vets and the posters (vets too) who have spoken out on behalf of your car who is clearly suffering. No vet would advocate end of life unless necessary and in the absolute best interest of the animal involved.

@TatianaBis

Would all the posters pressurising OP to euthanise pressure her for or against an abortion?

The degree of emotional blackmail is nauseating.

Your body your choice, your cat your choice.

What the fuck am I reading? Disgusting comparison.

I had an opposite reaction to you OP. My old boy was starting to suffer, so I phoned the vet and made the appointment to have him pts. It was really difficult as my children adored him. He had arrived at our door in a terrible state and obviously really badly treated (must have been kicked, the way he limped), 16 years earlier, and had ‘ruled the roost’ since!

When we saw the vet, he started suggesting doing tests and saying there was a chance treatment might work! It made it so much harder as we had made the decision and didn’t want him to suffer. He had lost his balance and fallen off our coffee table that afternoon, so we knew the time had come. I had to go through and pay the vet’s fee, before he euthanised him. When I came back in, the vet said that we were making the right decision as he had fallen over in front of the vet, whilst I was out of the room!

It was one of the hardest things I have ever done, but it was the right decision. Your vet wouldn’t advise having your boy pts if it wasn’t the kindest thing to do. I think you were right to take him home. Spoil him and give him all the time and love you can, over the next week, then take him back and do the right thing for him. 💐

You can also get a kidney transplant and dialysis for an animal.

If your cat is still happy (e.g. purring) and eating, sleeping and peeing well and his heart rate isn't indicating severe pain then he's probably ok to keep going for a bit longer with appropriate meds.

There is no way I would allow a cat to be pts during what I thought was a routine appointment and I would not go back to a vet who suggested that, without telling me to go home and think about it.

This thread is full of examples of pet owners who are clearly clueless -from promoting illegal and unethical procedures to claiming behaviours indicate something that they don't, Or owners that prioritise their own feelings and responses over safeguarding their pet's welfare.

This is exactly why trained veterinary professionals are needed to guide owners to make difficult decisions - even when you aren't ready for them.

Sure you can be angry, sad and offended if you like. We know it sucks. But our responsibility is to be the voice of reason and the advocate for your pet's welfare, when you can't be objective. This thread shows clearly that a lot of pet owners love their pet's very much but are terrible at assessing pain, and still prioritise length of life over quality of life. Whilst that continues to happen, we will have to continue to be the ones advocating to stop your pet from suffering, even when you can't see it.

@OliviaPopeRules

TatianaBis it is in no way comparable and you are disgusting. "Ending the life of something" are you fucking deranged comparing a human to a cat never mind calling both a thing!

Humans and animals are living beings. Buddhists and Hindus believe both should be treated equally well. Hindu’s respect for animal rights is founded in the principle of ‘ahimsa‘ - which means no living thing should be harmed - and applies equally to humans and animals - hence vegetarianism.

I chose the word ‘thing’ carefully as concepts of foetus vary widely - from a bunch of cells to an ensouled human being.

You can also get a kidney transplant and dialysis for an animal.

I'm getting big 'routinely puts collars on neighbour cats they have decided are strays' energy from some of the posters on this thread.

OP - cats often take themselves off to die. Your cat is inside at the moment I assume from the litter tray? He may be purring and eating, these are completely normal and fairly involuntary things. Your vet who studied / practiced for years and who is an expert in this has told you what you need to do.

It's cruel to continue to leave him in this state.

Pets hide pain so well. They can’t make the choice to stop their suffering so we have to do it for them. It’s the hardest part of loving them.

I just wanted to add as well...a lot of people are commenting about the vet offering to euthanise the cat ‘today’ at the routine check up appointment. I obviously don’t know/no one posting bar the thread starter, the background to this - maybe this cat has been seen lots of time recently and it is a continued slow progression etc?

Equally, if it isn’t, if it is that it feels completely out the blue, the vet was not offering euthanasia today to be callous or uncaring. I often explain that “we are heading to the point where PTS is kindest and that we can make that decision today if you want, or we can try x,y,x or spend a couple of days with fluffy and then give us a ring...etc”. Some people (quite a lot actually) are often expecting to be told PTS is imminent and once it’s suggested want to proceed then, not dwell on it, or have to bring a pet back to the vet (which can be stressful) another day. So it’s not wrong that the vet offered it that day, as many people would want that to be offered and discussed

A kidney transplant on a 17 yr
old cat with multiple health issues? I’ve heard it all now 🙄

OP your update suggests that your cat does have a little time left, but please be vigilant. The end is clearly near and the vet was offering best advice on the information they have. They cannot see your cat eating and drinking well as you have described.

Please be careful however, as IME a vet will always err on the side of caution. The end must be close. In particular, please be aware that if your cat is purring that may be a sign of her being in pain. A purr can be a self comforting mechanism, when they are suffering, rather than a sign that they are happy.

Enjoy your last days or weeks together. As someone said above, if your cat continues to improve and eat well, it would be worth phoning the vet and asking for another week's medication. But they will probably want to see her again - maybe you will see a different vet this time, who can explain the process and the timeline better.

Best of luck

Sorry, that should have read 'A vet will always err on the side of caution, rather than letting your pet battle on in pain or distress'.

Ah OP sorry you’re getting a beating on this thread when you clearly love your cat

For me the marker wasn’t that she was still eating and drinking but she was no longer snoring her head off most of the time in her old age

She’d sleep for brief moments but wouldn’t spend hours snoring her head off. That made me realise she was in pain/discomfort

Sorry, but your vet presumably has experience and has seen the cat who appears to be suffering. Quality of life is key. Don’t keep your cat going if it’s suffering.

Sorry to hear this op, I remember feeling the same way as you about putting to sleep my pets - wanting and thinking there could be another way and listing all that was good in their lives. Sadly it sounds like she will deteriorate more this week and the medicine is what’s prolonging her life. I think when the vet is that blunt it’s to not give you false hope and encourage the owner to not allow for the animal to suffer although it’s only out of love you’re keeping them alive.💐

@Veterinari thanks for the post. I enjoy reading your advice. As someone who deals with animals and vets almost weekly I agree. I have many vet friends and the suicide rates are something that should be discussed way more, sadly. Thank you for the comment.

people suffer with multiple ailments and aren't sent to their deaths, their conditions are managed

This is a bad thing not a good thing. Having the option to put our pets to sleep is treating them better than we treat humans. There is no point in prolonging suffering. Think about who you’re doing it for OP - your cat or you? Do what’s best for him. Sorry you are going through this, I’ve been there twice and it’s horrible.

@cat234

I’m also a vet, and just wanted to echo the comments of lots of the other posters.

I’ve had similar conversations to what it sounds like your vet has discussed with you on numerous occasions with many many clients. Yes, ultimately, you know your pet best, but seeing it every day often makes it difficult to see changes as it happens do gradually.

many owners do not seem to appreciate, or be aware of, some of the more subtle signs of pain and discomfort. If I had a pound for every time a client had told me their limping pet is not in pain, I could probably retire! Apart from a very few causes of ‘functional’ lameness, an animal limps because something is hurting, not for anything other reason! But yet people still insist a limping animal ‘isn’t in any pain’. In a similar vein, people who think their cat purring is happy (sometime, but not always). Or the owner who insists on talking an animal in respiratory distress home, and finds it in the morning ‘passed peacefully away overnight’, when in reality it’s drowned to death overnight - but because the owner wasn’t there they assume it was a lovely peaceful slipping away overnight. I could go on....in reality, owners often have a very limited understanding of the implications of how their pets illness will be making their pet feel, or the progression of it, and people hang onto to the ‘he’s still going for walks’ or ‘she’s still eating’ when in many cases the quality of life is long gone.

Animals live in the here and now. Quality over quantity. They don’t know if they will be here tomorrow, next week, or next year. They know if they are happy, pain free, don’t feel ill, nauseous etc today. That’s the important bit of them.

As the other vets posting have already said, vets have an obligation to uphold animal welfare above all else. Whilst I don’t like upsetting owners, being blunt with them, giving them bad news, suggesting euthanasia etc, ultimately my focus has to be on the animal, I am their voice and their advocate, and I will always, always, so that to the best of my ability whatever that means an owner thinks of me. If an owner disagrees, they are always more than welcome to seek a second opinion, but I will never stop pushing, advising, explaining what I feel is the kindest and most appropriate thing for the animal - they are my focus, not the owner.

Excellent post. I read somewhere that the reason it takes longer to train to be a vet than a doctor is that an animal cannot tell you what is wrong, so a deeper level of understanding needs to be attained. Your vet is the expert OP, not you sadly.