...to think this is vile behaviour from a vet?

[ReluctantRenegade]

Hi all,

I'm very upset as I type this and desperately need some advice. The situation is my cat's 17 and has a few chronic health conditions including kidney (stage 2 at last blood analysis a few months ago) and heart disease. He had two seizures about a week ago which I think were caused by the hot weather as he was struggling to keep cool despite our best efforts. He has had one seizure before several months ago so three in total.

I took him to the vets today and they recommended having him put down because of the combination of these various illnesses which I can understand as on paper it looks bad but they don't live with him so aren't getting the full picture. I know they're professionals but they don't see him eating, sleeping and enjoying getting affection from his owners who've loved and cared for him for 17 years so they're just looking at him as a list of symptoms rather than as a living entity.

Anyway, I said to the vet putting him to sleep has been something that's on my mind but he has improved in some ways now he is taking diuretics for the heart disease. Obviously the seizures were nasty to witness and probably awful for him and he was quite disoriented following this but this is improving now and he hasn't had further seizures since the weather has cooled down.

What disgusted me however and made me feel utterly powerless and on my own with regards to his care is she said they could put him down then and there at the appointment even though he was just booked in for a check-up so naturally I refused as it seemed too abrupt and I don't think he is suffering to the extent he needs to be put down immediately. Of course there is an element of suffering with any chronic health condition but people suffer with multiple ailments and aren't sent to their deaths, their conditions are managed.

What really has upset me though other than their haste to end his life is the vet would only give me enough diuretic medication for him for the next week as she said she thinks he needs to be put down within the next week. Is this even allowed? She thinks he is suffering but is going to make him suffer more by not authorising medication to keep him comfortable for his time left in the world, whether that be weeks or months? AIBU or is this highly unethical of her to refuse to re-prescribe medication for him?

Lastly, this vets is subsidised so I think there's an element of it being cheaper for them to have him die than treating him there and have heard other owners disagree with this practice's 'recommendation' to put their pets to sleep. I pay what I can afford but it's cheaper than a standard vets so I think this is probably relevant to their eagerness to put animals down.

@TatianaBis - congratulations on posting the most ridiculously inappropriate comment of the day! What a fucking obscene comparison to make. I guess we all know how cruel you are now though, you'd obviously keep a very unwell animal alive to suffer in endless pain just for your own benefit. As if that's somehow better than a woman having a choice over her own body. You really ought to be ashamed of yourself.

@TatianaBis

Would all the posters pressurising OP to euthanise pressure her for or against an abortion?

The degree of emotional blackmail is nauseating.

Your body your choice, your cat your choice.

That is the stupidest thing I’ve ever read on here...

Are you keeping the cat alive for your sake or the cats, seizures aren't normal and the vet has the real insight in to what is going on.

I think you are being a bit disingenuous by saying the cat is fine when it's had two seizures in the past week. Even if the weather is hot-presumably the cat didn't have seizures in past years, so I would think this is more likely to be kidney failure. Those seizures will be disorienting and frightening for the cat. If the cat was at stage 2 a few months ago, surely it's likely the disease has progressed.

People with kidney failure are treated until there's no more options but then they are treated only with palliative care, I've been in hospices with people with kidney failure- not everything can be cured, unfortunately.

I do think though, that for your own peace of mind it may be worth getting a second opinion, because it sounds like you are really unsure. I would go with the tablets for the next week, and before you run out, get some more/see another vet. It doesn't sound like the vet was overly empathic, but on the other hand, you sound very resistant to hearing that your cat is very ill and perhaps the vet was a little frustrated with that- the cat had multiple health conditions and is having seizures and is 17 so added together, even though they are eating, they may decline quite rapidly.

People may stop eating in the very last stages of life, but not everyone, and sometimes they sit up and eat in a burst of energy. I really don't think it's always the case the people stop eating and drinking, they might in the last two/three days but perhaps not even then- I saw a lovely guy eat a big dinner with his family one day in the hospice and he was gone the next! Cats are not all identical either.

So sad, OP, really hard for you.

I think TatianaBis lives in another realm.
Bless

In the nicest way, she is qualified to make an assessment as to whether your cat is suffering and you're not. She also has no incentive to euthanise other than the cat's welfare, whereas you do because you benefit from her company. It's tough but you need to put your cat's interests before your own.

As an aside, my very good friend is an amazing vet. I can easily imagine her being shitty AF to an owner that was (well intenionally) allowing an animal to continue suffering unnecessarily. She merrily admits she's an animal person and not a people one -and I've always thought is on the spectrum- and that right there is why she is so good at her job.

However, saying they can do the euthanasia then and there is completely unprofessional. They wouldn't dream of saying this at any practice I have worked at or brought my pets to. There are a lot of ways to impress the urgency of a decision to the client which doesn't involve making them feel like we can't wait to put their beloved pet to sleep

It's not usually as simple as the vet just springing it on the owner. Every single time I've had to euthanise a cat it's been because I've been informed at visits months prior that the cat is terminally ill, and there is going to come a point whereby it's kinder to euthanise than continue treatment. You don't know exactly when that point is until it happens, but that way you don't go to the vet in the knowledge that you are taking an animal to be put to sleep.

It's a tacit agreement that at some point in the course of treatment, the vet is going to say enough is enough and suggest euthanasia. It really is a lot less stressful all round that leaving it entirely to the discretion of the pet owner, and having to organise a visit purely for that specific purpose.

When I was 18, I took my beloved 11 year old cat to the vet, because she'd been stressed by our house move a week earlier and still didn't seem herself.

My vet (a trusted friend of the family) told me she had a heart condition that had been set off in a bad way by the stress of our house move. There was no cure or help for her. Either he could put her down now, or I could take her home, let her suffer a week or two longer, then bring her back to be put down.

I couldn't let her suffer and I knew bringing her home only to know I'd need her put down so soon would be emotional torture for me. So I had five minutes alone with her to say goodbye, and that was that.

I'm crying as I write this, 17 years later, because I still feel how completely unprepared I was for that experience and how devastated I felt by it. Also the guilt that our house move killed her, though there was no possible way I could have known beforehand. But I can't regret the choice I made that day, because it was the best choice for her.

We all have to say goodbye to our pets some day, and do the best by them as long as we have them. If you trust this vet's opinion, you need to do what's best for your pet. However, if you have genuine reason to distrust them, get a second opinion elsewhere, so you can put your mind at rest and not potentially put your cat through unnecessary pain.

I'm so sorry you're in this situation though, it's a really, really hard thing to deal with.

It is so hard to find the right time. I think that, usually, by the time that they start to show symptoms of the end of life, it is probably a bit late. So a week early is better than a couple of days too late. That said, how do you know if he has 1 week, several or a few months left. This is very difficult. I think however, that you should take your cat to another vets asap for a second opinion. If they also suggest the same, then I think that you need to listen. It may be that they suggest a few more days at home first though.

To be honest, if he stopped eating and drinking, using his litter box etc. I would see that as him telling me he's ready to go. Am I wrong to wait until he gives me this sign? I've heard a lot of people talk about how they knew it was time to put their cat to sleep when they stopped eating but am I mistaken to assume whilst he's still eating/drinking, grooming himself and things like that he wants to go on?

Yes you're wrong. He's a cat. He doesn't think like that. Eating, drinking and grooming are all instincts. It doesn't mean that he isn't suffering. He deserves to go while he still has some quality of life, not be forced to wait until he's in agony or feeling terribly ill. It isn't easy and I've been there countless times but it's the right thing to do.

It doesn’t matter what the sheep say on here, trust your own judgment on that.

People who are experienced with animals are giving their considered opinions. The OP doesn't have to take the advice, obviously, but it's not a good idea to dismiss things just because they're uncomfortable or challenge your world view.

As for the comment about abortion, I view a potential human life, as yet undeveloped, very differently to how I view the life of a 17 year old cat. They are both precious, but in very different ways. It's a completely different decision to make and why you think the comparison is in any way valid or helpful is beyond me.

I am sorry your cat is ill, but vets know what they are talking about

They don’t suggest putting animals to sleep lightly, they will be able to judge the quality of life your cat has, and it’s not fair for them to be in pain, and feeling ill and dying slowly

It’s hard, I get that, I had a decision to make, put my little dog to sleep or keep her with me for perhaps six weeks max, watching her get worse and worse in pain, just because I didn’t want her to die. I chose to put her needs first

Please put your cat first

@TatianaBis you are being utterly ridiculous.

Who says? Personally I think that’s nonsense.

I’d much rather have 2 more weeks of life.

But then, you're not a cat who is in considerable pain, feeling ill, doesn't understand why, and utterly miserable.

It's such a difficult decision OP. I do think waiting until he's not eating etc, is waiting too long. That said, I know how incredibly difficult it is to let them go. Think of it as a final act of love and kindness. And remember, he won't suffer. It will be worse for you (the grief) than him.

Also one of my biggest regrets is letting my cat continue on for another week, strongly suggested by the vet who wanted to try other treatments , when I knew it was time. I sincerely regret that and it still troubles me. As others said better too soon than too late. I've never regretted calling a halt to treatment before, except the one occasion when I called it too late.

[quote Ohtherewearethen]@TatianaBis - congratulations on posting the most ridiculously inappropriate comment of the day! What a fucking obscene comparison to make. I guess we all know how cruel you are now though, you'd obviously keep a very unwell animal alive to suffer in endless pain just for your own benefit. As if that's somehow better than a woman having a choice over her own body. You really ought to be ashamed of yourself.[/quote]
ODFOD.

I will be no more pressured by a doctor into abortion than I will be pressured into killing an animal by a vet (or pages of emotional blackmail.)

Owners have the moral responsibly for their own animals. They know their animals better than the vet.

I’ve had to make a decision to abort and I’ve had to make decisions to euthanise animals. In both cases it’s a life/death decision. I decide not the vet or the doctor who doesn’t know the animal/situation as well as I do.

her behaviour was very cold and she had very poor communication skills

To be fair, she may have appeared cold because she was struggling with your wish to keep a sick animal suffering.

Owners have the moral responsibly for their own animals. They know their animals better than the vet

They don't always know what's best for their animals. It's nonsense that they do. I've seen too many people cling to their animals when it was clear that they were suffering. Animals can also hide suffering from their owners, no matter how well they know them. As PP said cats will purr with pain, not only when content.

Your vet has given their professional opinion and I agree your cat is dying the vet can see this im sorry Your cat is so ill but kidney disease can't be cured your cat will decline stop eating And just hang on being ill and dying I've had a cat with kidney disease it is painful do the right thing.

your cat, your choice

Wrong.
Your cat, your responsibility.

The fact that your cat is eating and grooming doesn't mean he's not in severe pain. Don't prolong that. Let him go without experiencing any more suffering. It's the kindest way.

I haven't read the full thread so apologise if this has already been said.

The vet is a professional and has given their advice.

The bit where you say that humans manage conditions and aren't put to sleep. That disgusts me. Animals have a massive pain threshold and humans do not. We are not allowed to put humans to sleep.The doctors would be sent to prison. I would not have let my mother suffer as she did if I was allowed to have her put to sleep. Stop thinking of yourself. I am so sorry for your cat. Do what is right for them.

I would see a different Vet at a different Practice for a second opinion OP. I know everyone says that if the Vet says it's time, it must be but really I'm sure that it is a judgement call.

If your cat is still happy (e.g. purring) and eating, sleeping and peeing well and his heart rate isn't indicating severe pain then he's probably ok to keep going for a bit longer with appropriate meds.

My dog has markers for kidney disease, the signs he is suffering will be:
Increased thirst and urination
Lack of appetite
Lethargy
Vomiting
Peeing blood
High blood pressure, combined with blood & urine test results showing kidney failure.
You can also get a kidney transplant and dialysis for an animal.
I’m not saying I would proceed but it is an option.
A subsidised vets will limit your treatment options ie PDSA.

My lovely cat had kidney failure and we discussed as it progressed- when was the right time. She ate and drank etc right up u til day before- but she literally lost her sight overnight from high blood pressure- and we waited until the following day before she was put to sleep. It was bloody heartbreaking to see- if I had to do it again I would have done it sooner -