...to think this is vile behaviour from a vet?

[ReluctantRenegade]

Hi all,

I'm very upset as I type this and desperately need some advice. The situation is my cat's 17 and has a few chronic health conditions including kidney (stage 2 at last blood analysis a few months ago) and heart disease. He had two seizures about a week ago which I think were caused by the hot weather as he was struggling to keep cool despite our best efforts. He has had one seizure before several months ago so three in total.

I took him to the vets today and they recommended having him put down because of the combination of these various illnesses which I can understand as on paper it looks bad but they don't live with him so aren't getting the full picture. I know they're professionals but they don't see him eating, sleeping and enjoying getting affection from his owners who've loved and cared for him for 17 years so they're just looking at him as a list of symptoms rather than as a living entity.

Anyway, I said to the vet putting him to sleep has been something that's on my mind but he has improved in some ways now he is taking diuretics for the heart disease. Obviously the seizures were nasty to witness and probably awful for him and he was quite disoriented following this but this is improving now and he hasn't had further seizures since the weather has cooled down.

What disgusted me however and made me feel utterly powerless and on my own with regards to his care is she said they could put him down then and there at the appointment even though he was just booked in for a check-up so naturally I refused as it seemed too abrupt and I don't think he is suffering to the extent he needs to be put down immediately. Of course there is an element of suffering with any chronic health condition but people suffer with multiple ailments and aren't sent to their deaths, their conditions are managed.

What really has upset me though other than their haste to end his life is the vet would only give me enough diuretic medication for him for the next week as she said she thinks he needs to be put down within the next week. Is this even allowed? She thinks he is suffering but is going to make him suffer more by not authorising medication to keep him comfortable for his time left in the world, whether that be weeks or months? AIBU or is this highly unethical of her to refuse to re-prescribe medication for him?

Lastly, this vets is subsidised so I think there's an element of it being cheaper for them to have him die than treating him there and have heard other owners disagree with this practice's 'recommendation' to put their pets to sleep. I pay what I can afford but it's cheaper than a standard vets so I think this is probably relevant to their eagerness to put animals down.

Do you think your cat will pass away peacefully is this what you are hoping for?

You need to put your cat first.Our family dog was put down later than she should have as my parents couldn't bear the thought of it all.Its horrific losing an animal but you need to do what's right.

The problem is OP there is likely to be another heatwave before the summer is over and even if it's just a few days it will probably trigger fits in your cat again and seeing an animal you love die from a fit is horrible it's not a nice death and it's obvious it's painful. The vet wants to prevent you and your cat from going through this. Eating and drinking is great but survival instinct will keep animals who are dying eating and drinking just in case.

Animals don't want to die or live. They have an instinct for self preservation. If they lose that instinct, that's a very bad thing, but it's possible for the instinct to remain right up until death and that doesn't mean the animal "wants to live". That is why they keep eating and drinking. If they don't eat, they weaken. If they are weak, they're more vulnerable to predators. It's not about wanting to live, it's about basic animal instinct. Not eating is a bad sign but eating is not necessarily always a good sign, if you see what I mean.

It is a matter of opinion, but personally, I think it is wrong in the face of all other signs, to wait for when he stops eating and using the litter box. You know that day will come when he will be in so much suffering he won't want to eat anymore. Why wait for that day, when he can be free from suffering now? It's for your sake, not the cat's. You want to be 100% sure it's the right thing for your sake, so you don't feel guilty. But the real guilt comes when you realise in hindsight that you left it too late. Others on this thread have shared their experiences of that guilt. I don't think many people feel guilt at making the decision a little early, not when animals have no understanding nor awareness of death.

@TatianaBis - no I won't 'Fuck off' sorry. Your comments go from bizarre to utterly absurd.
If you know much better than vets and doctors, why do you fucking go to them? Sort your own shit out.

Owners do indeed have a moral responsibility for their pets. Which is why good, responsible owners listen to professional advice and can't bear to see their beloved pets in pain. You, however, think that keeping seriously unwell animals alive in unknown pain and suffering is the best thing to do because you know best. I hope you never own any more animals.

If your cat is still happy (e.g. purring)

That doesn't necessarily mean that the cat is happy. Cats will purr when in pain. Sometimes the pain makes them purr even more.

www.preventivevet.com/cats/how-can-i-tell-if-my-cat-is-in-pain

@Lovely1a2b3c

I would see a different Vet at a different Practice for a second opinion OP. I know everyone says that if the Vet says it's time, it must be but really I'm sure that it is a judgement call.

If your cat is still happy (e.g. purring) and eating, sleeping and peeing well and his heart rate isn't indicating severe pain then he's probably ok to keep going for a bit longer with appropriate meds.

Purring is something cats do to self soothe, they can purr when in pain, it isn't an indicator of a happy cat. Getting different opinions is all well and good, but it will also add to the stress an ill pet has to endure.

@CinnamonCrumble

Owners have the moral responsibly for their own animals. They know their animals better than the vet

They don't always know what's best for their animals. It's nonsense that they do. I've seen too many people cling to their animals when it was clear that they were suffering. Animals can also hide suffering from their owners, no matter how well they know them. As PP said cats will purr with pain, not only when content.

They don’t always know and neither does the vet.

Some people do cling onto their animals when they’re obviously wanting to go. Equally vets also medicate animals and prolong their life artificially when it would be better to let it go.

A friend of mine was very distressed that her old sick cat was given loads of invasive treatment and it ended up dying at the vet. It would have died more peacefully without it.

You have to be rational and you have to be ready to let the animal go.

I’m sorry but part of Owning and loving an animal is knowing when to let them go with dignity. It’s not easy. I had to put my best friend to sleep in June and I got him when I first moved out of my parents so he was with me for all of my adult life. It was just me and him and I am incredibly lonely and sad without him BUT seeing him in pain and knowing I couldn’t explain it to him made the decision easier. I posted here at the time and got lots of loving gentle advice on the doghouse board. Peoples answered are perhaps coloured by your nasty comments about your vet (who is really your pets advocate, telling you what they need and giving you the benefit of their years of experience) you may not want to hear it but you care for one animal, theyve cared for 1000s, if you want a second opinion pay for it but I would listen to what they are telling you. they can see the situation fair more clearly and with much more knowledge than you can.

Let your cat go, in your arms and with all your love rather than in a dark corner somewhere when it all becomes too much

[quote CinnamonCrumble]If your cat is still happy (e.g. purring)

That doesn't necessarily mean that the cat is happy. Cats will purr when in pain. Sometimes the pain makes them purr even more.

www.preventivevet.com/cats/how-can-i-tell-if-my-cat-is-in-pain[/quote]
Yes, this. And the idea that purring is a sign of happiness does show why owners are not necessarily best placed to make that decision unaided.

OP it's a horrible position to be in. Obviously you weren't happy with the first vet. If you can, book an appointment with another vet to get a second opinion, but do be prepared that they may say something similar, even if it happens to be with a better manner!

I'm so sorry, @ReluctantRenegade. This is so hard for you. I have a cat the same age so I do understand how you feel. The problem with waiting until he stops eating or using his litter tray is that by then he really would be suffering, and I know from your posts you'd hate that. I think back to my last cat and what happened to her. She seemed absolutely fine, was eating, behaving normally for a 19 year old cat. Then one morning she went missing and we found that she had hidden herself behind the bath. The panel had been taken off the week before. We had real problems getting her out, and when we did she was her normal affectionate self, but we decided to get her checked at the vets anyway. It turned out that she had a lot of rotten teeth. The vet had to remove most of her teeth, and said that she must have been in terrible pain.....yet there had been no sign, until she tried to hide away. I know that it's hard for you, but your vet is basing her advice on clinical evidence. Ask anyone with kidney problems, they will tell you there's often a lot of pain. Sometimes Putting our pets to sleep is that last loving kindness we can show them. Sending you a hug.

@FOJN

Its so upsetting when our pets are ill but I think that not being motivated by profit means the vet is more likely to be giving you an honest assessments of your pets suffering and genuinely believes being PTS is for the best.

Not necessarily.

[quote Ohtherewearethen]@TatianaBis - no I won't 'Fuck off' sorry. Your comments go from bizarre to utterly absurd.
If you know much better than vets and doctors, why do you fucking go to them? Sort your own shit out.

Owners do indeed have a moral responsibility for their pets. Which is why good, responsible owners listen to professional advice and can't bear to see their beloved pets in pain. You, however, think that keeping seriously unwell animals alive in unknown pain and suffering is the best thing to do because you know best. I hope you never own any more animals.[/quote]
This is such an unintelligent post I cba to respond.

OP please find a different vet - I have cats who are so old that they make your dear cat look like a youngster. Due to their great ages they have a number of health conditions that need medications, but both have great quality of life thanks to the veterinary care provided by our wonderful vets. Please seek a second opinion asap.

It's very unfortunate that at a sad time like this your cat was seen by a vet that obviously lacked tact and any warmth or understanding.

I don't think this has helped the sad situation and I'm not surprised you are questioning her judgement because of her coldness.

Can you find a very good vet/or can any of your friends recommend a very good one for a second opinion that you can fully trust and then follow his/her instructions even though it may be very hard for you.

Good luck.

Ha ha ha @TatianaBis! The intelligence oozing from your 'ODFOD' and previous nonsensical ramblings must have had me so awestruck I temporarily took leave of my senses! You are making more of a fool of yourself with every comment you post.

I don’t think this is the right place for this. I could no more tell you to put Him to Sleep or not too.

Vets generally differ in opinion, my elderly dog shouldn’t be walking far according to the vet. But she wants to so I walk her. If she doesn’t want to go I don’t take her. Follow your instincts. Personally I think if it was me and he had another seizure that would be my cue.

Would all the posters pressurising OP to euthanise pressure her for or against an abortion?

No, because if a fetus was inviable and not going to survive gestation, the equivalent of a terminally ill cat that is not going to get better and faces continually diminishing quality of life, then the doctors would abort in any case and there would be a decision to 'pressure' for.

The degree of emotional blackmail is nauseating

Perhaps if you're entirely cognitively dissonant and have a completely warped set of ethics.

wouldn't be a decision* obviously

@ReluctantRenegade I am sorry your cat is so unwell. Kidney failure and heart disease are two very incompatible conditions the diuretics to support the heart disease sadly only hasten the progression of the kidney failure as they put pressure on kidney function.
As a vet I have faced this awful decision with my own cat I had successfully treated hyperthyroidism and the pleural effusion from her heart disease, but the day she I diagnosed chronic renal failure I knew that the future for her was grim.
As vets we spend 5 years learning to keep animals healthy and how to fix them when they are broken. Then on the very day we are admitted to the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons and gain our licence to practice the final hurdle we have to complete is to stand up and say the words that above all else we have to I hold the welfare of the animals in our care.
You can not become a veterinary surgeon in the UK until you have says those words out loud, through out our careers we are regularly reminded that it is the welfare of the animals in our care that we are primarily responsible for.
As hard as it is to hear this was your vets primary responsibility today, Covid 19 is making having this discussion hard we are having it on the phone and in car parks. Social distancing means we are not able to support clients in the ways we normally would, do you risk your own health to support and owner or day you appear cold, but maintain social distancing.
The seizures will be the build up of kidney waste products and humans report this makes them feel nauseous, low energy and general just rough. Heat alone will not cause seizures.
None of us as vets want an owner or their pet to suffer the awful distressing crisis. It is a cliche, but a very true one it is always better a day too soon than a day to late.
I hope you find peace.

I would feel exactly the same as you. There is no way I would allow a cat to be pts during what I thought was a routine appointment and I would not go back to a vet who suggested that, without telling me to go home and think about it.
I have 4 cats and 2 years ago I lost a 19 year old cat because of a facial cancer. She was diagnosed 2 years earlier and at that point the vet said she should be pts. I took a second opinion and with inexpensive meds my cat had two good summers. When she went downhill, it was quick ie days and the vet had given me pain killers for her and if she was in serious pain and I couldn’t get her to the vet (weekend evening) or the like, I was given tramadol to ease her passing. That was the thing I was most worried about, that She would die in pain without vet support. Having the drugs at home eased my mind. In the event , as soon as we felt things had gone too far and she was in pain , we called the vet and she was pts.. I wouldn’t have done things differently.

With you in the abruptness from the vet. But it probably is time. 💐

I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. We’ve recently had our 17 year old boy pts, however we knew this was the end of the road for him. He’s been through so much in his life and we were privileged to have shared 17 years with him. He had stopped eating and drinking and was just sleeping and not really with us anymore. For us, the decision had been made and the vet agreed with us.
Cats do mask their pain but you know your cat and if they’re behaving normally on every level then the medication must be doing it’s job. I would urge you to get a second opinion, and then consider your options.

I strongly disagree with you OP.

However, if you are adamant it is not a clear cut case why not go to a different vet for a second opinion?

I would feel exactly the same as you. There is no way I would allow a cat to be pts during what I thought was a routine appointment and I would not go back to a vet who suggested that, without telling me to go home and think about it.

If there's any failing at all on the part of the vet, then this is probably the crux of it.

The cat in question is 17, suffering kidney and heart disease, and experiencing seizures. The OP did not just find out about the cat's illnesses today. If the vet has failed to inform the OP at previous appointments that the cat is essentially in palliative care and will require euthanising, then that is a bit intransigent. I would doubt any vet is that callous or unthinking though.