Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder if you know that the meat you buy could have been raised in a factory farm...

625 replies

MsWonderful · 26/08/2020 19:01

And that the animals could also have been subjected to horrific cruelty even if the farm is Red Tractor approved?
www.daventry.radio/daventry-farm-suspended-from-red-tractor-scheme-amid-animal-welfare-concerns/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
BewareTheBeardedDragon · 29/08/2020 14:08

Presumably, since the farm in the OP has had its certification taken away the Red Tractor agree that the abuse was real and unacceptable? Which means that abuse was happening but was not picked up by RT during inspection.
As a consumer that makes me doubt the validity of the scheme - is that unreasonable? I can't go and inspect the farms from which my egg and dairy products come myself. I have to rely on someone else doing so, and on the certification schemes labelled on products I buy meaning that I am not complicit in animal abuse by buying my food.
This does not mean that I think that all uk animals are abused. I live near the countryside and see apparently happy outdoor grazing animals regularly local to me. But I don't trust Tesco non-organic milk, because of things like this, because I have no idea which farm that milk has come from.
I feel like the justifiable anger of the good farmers and being tarred with the same brush needs to be aimed at the bad farmers and the schemes which are letting them down in the eyes of consumers by not picking up the bad farmers. Posters upthread have spoken of knowing about bad farms, reporting them, nothing happening. It doesn't fill the concerned consumer with confidence. If I was a farmer with RT labelling right now I'd be pretty bloody angry with them for letting this happen. Not with the people who uncovered it.

It is very interesting and worrying to hear about images purporting to show abuse that dont - that is crappy and not good for the animals. But in this case RT have agreed that something bad was going on.

MoiraRosesTransAtlanticDrawl · 29/08/2020 14:17

lake it doesn't. But we can reduce the amount killed every year by becoming plant based.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 29/08/2020 14:32

We would have to reduce pet ownership at the same rate... Cat and dog food etc.

TheHappyHerbivore · 29/08/2020 15:07

Ah there’s that brush and your tar again. No. It’s not. You cannot assume that the whole scheme is dysfunctional because of the behaviour of an incredibly tiny minority. We didn’t brandish all doctors as the same as Harold Shipman, nor do we brand all parents as neglectful as those of baby P. So why on earth would one supposed example of poor conditions ever be assumed to be applicable to all members of the same schemes?

Where did I say the whole scheme was dysfunctional? I’m just pointing out that if the scheme isn’t actually catching and preventing cases of cruelty, it’s a sign it could be improved. You keep wildly exaggerating the points being made because they’re easier to dismiss that way, but I genuinely don’t believe it should be controversial to say that if a scheme designed to guarantee high welfare standards is not succeeding in doing that, it probably needs some work.

Your own examples bloody prove this - when baby P died there was a massive investigation into how and why he was so badly let down by social services, because the safety net that was designed to save children from that kind of cruelty didn’t work. Imagine if everyone had taken your attitude and said ‘not all social workers are negligent so the system clearly works fine’.

And I say supposed because these AR exposeé type situations rarely produce any actual concrete evidence of the alleged wrong doing. There’s always damning photos or videos accompanied by some vegan narrating things in a sad voice to tell you what’s going on and we are just supposed to swallow it as the truth of life as a farm animal? Like the article in the OP shows what 3/4 stills from an unknown video? Apparently there was a video but they’ve now removed it? And all that was from a 5 month period? And we are expected to believe that it is true 24/7? Why is there not more? If something was so systematically abusive there should be hours and hours of footage from those 5 months you’d think wouldn’t you? Yet here we are, some stills with an AR activist telling us what’s happening. I saw a video yesterday from a similar AR activist showing how the “fharmers” (catchy, like it) abuse their cows with blowtorches and use them to frighten the animals into submission. Do you know what they were actually doing? Singeing the cows bags to remove hair and to keep them clean. It’s good husbandry practice and we do it regularly. But joe public don’t know that do they? They see what the AR activists want them to- farmers abusing animals for money. Another vegan group yesterday posted some photos of some calves “trapped” in a feeder and being forced to eat in order to get fatter more quickly. It went viral, people condemning farmers and calling them abusive. The best bit? It was a creep feeder. It has a bar across the back to stop those which are too tall (ie mum) getting in and eating all the food and leaving none for the calves. The animals were free to come and go as they please. But the amount of comments and shares that were generated which actually believed what they were being told was insane. Vegans claiming that they have saved the calves because they went back and they were all out of the feeder. But because people don’t know any better than what is being put in front of them with a sad commentary they will believe it and anyone who says different is just condoning the abuse.

If you have evidence that the link OP posted is fake news then by all means share it, but nobody is going to take a face value your assumption that it can’t be real when the red tractor scheme itself has accepted it.

Can you not see how this makes everyone a little jaded and sick of the whole AR exposeé situation? There’s all these dodgy clips and stills being thrown round and everyone is being told that this is what happens every day in every farm across the country when those that know know it’s not, but their voice is never as loud as the AR activists, and even if it is you get branded as excusing abuse. Which is not in any way what any one is doing, but you shouldn’t be subjected to abuse for trying to use your common bloody sense to explain why what they’re seeing isn’t as black and white as the AR lot would like to believe.

Do you feel equally furious about the vast swathes of pro-farming propaganda out there? Unless you’re a hypocrite you must be just as furious that beef adverts don’t show footage from slaughterhouses, or calves being separated from their mothers, or mastitis being treated.

Sorry that was long. But I hate this narrative that has cropped up several times over several threads that farmers are abusive and that vegans and AR activists are beyond reproach. You say nothing and you’re complicit, say something and you’re condoning it. We literally cannot win regardless of what we do because there’s always someone willing to tell a tall tale to further their own agenda.

The only people who keep tarring farmers with the same brush is you. Countless times on this thread I and others posters have reiterated that these criticisms don’t apply to all farmers, and every single time you’ve taken specific and direct criticisms of particular instances of cruelty as an indictment of all farming. I imagine that when you’re not so fired up and defensive you’re just as horrified by cruelty happening on other farms as anyone, but for some reason you seem to feel compelled to deny that it even exists, just because it occurs in the same industry you work in. It’s so frustrating, because any industry benefits from its practitioners recognising and condemning wrongdoing from others within it, rather than closing ranks, insisting everything is fine and condemning any suggestion otherwise as fake news.

TheMarzipanDildo · 29/08/2020 15:21

”Thats the point most if us meat eaters have been making, have stated really plainly: ALL food production is based on manipulating the environment.”

This is true of course, but I think it is also something most people who are vegan or vegetarian for ethical reasons already know.

I also dislike the sanctimonious some vegans can take, but I understand where they are coming from. If you loved meat and dairy but have decided that animals/ the environment are more important, I would imagine it would be quite frustrating that so many people don’t care as much.

I think everyone can do a bit more to protect the welfare of animals, whether that means researching the origins of meat products or just not eating meat. It’s not a case of ‘moral purity or nothing’.

lakesidesummer · 29/08/2020 15:42

lake it doesn't. But we can reduce the amount killed every year by becoming plant based.

I can't help thinking that this is going to depend on what you eat.
If you are swapping out upland lamb for non organic cereals then I not sure that would be the case.
Obviously the lamb would have more mass but the land they are reared on will have more bio diversity than a heavily sprayed cereal field.
So I would be eating more animal mass sticking with the lamb but I think more animals overall would be alive as a result of this choice.
( obviously their are other issues around the most environmental balance of food types)

MoiraRosesTransAtlanticDrawl · 29/08/2020 15:50

We live on a small planet with a growing population,there will always be a need to adjust and cater for everyone. A vegan diet is definitely not a panacea to the worlds problems but it would mean a hell of a lot of animals would not be born into the living hell that many currently endure. We feed grains to animals while humans go hungry. Steak cannot be that important can't it?

lakesidesummer · 29/08/2020 15:58

Again the 'living hell' isn't a universal state for all farm animals.
Personally I completely support higher animal welfare and am happy to swap to vegan alternatives for traditionally lower welfare food like chicken nuggets.
When I want ready meal food but don't want to use intensively reared meat.
But I don't think emotional language and pushing over simplistic solutions to more complicated issues actually helps.
The upland lamb I previously discussed isn't in a state of living hell.

MoiraRosesTransAtlanticDrawl · 29/08/2020 16:16

A grass fed pig will stand in the same kill line as on that was barned. I personally don't think it's ok until kill either. So unfortunately I struggle to see the high welfare part of the argument. I'm aware this makes me an awkward old cow.

MoiraRosesTransAtlanticDrawl · 29/08/2020 16:17

*ok to kill either.

Baaaahhhhh · 29/08/2020 16:25

The true dichotomy is however, that crops need fertilizer. Traditionally we use animal (from farming), manure, blood, fish and bonemeal. Without it, we wouldn't be able to have high yield crops. Without high yield crops, you can't feed the world. To be truly vegan you have to shun that, and rely on chemical fertilizer. Chemical fertilizer is made from by-products from the petrochemical industry, as are many of the alternative non animal derived, materials for clothing. Personally I'm still in the "natural" camp, rather than the chemical camp.

lakesidesummer · 29/08/2020 16:40

There is also the GM issue in relation to high yield crops.

MoiraRosesTransAtlanticDrawl · 29/08/2020 16:51

There are a few animal friendly techniques ready to fertilize crops, that are already practiced worldwide. Growing polycultures with nitrogen-fixing crops in the mix is a good idea for so many reasons, it just happens to be vegan as well. An example of this system is well known - corn (not the sweet stuff, but the kind for storage and making tortillas) grown with dry beans (the nitrogen fixer, it helps feed the crop and uses corn as a scaffold) grown with squash (has big leaves which act as weed suppressant). This system is called the 'Three sisters', and was practiced by native Americans centuries ago. It is still relevant today. In fact, any polyculture will have nitrogen fixers to feed the crops. Black locusts grown with chestnuts, clovers grown between rows of grapes, and alfalfa with tomatoes are all interesting examples of how to feed your crops, using other crops.
The second technique, and far more widely practiced, is the use of cover crops to build organic matter and fertility in the soil. Tilling results in huge losses of rodents and other animals that Vegans are fond of not killing, so I think a no-till cover crop approach is best for this situation. There are very few plant deficiencies that will arise if organic matter is high. Earthworms and countless microbes as well as mycorrhizae will feed the plants just fine as they break down residues from previous crops.

Also..

Compost produced from non-animal sources

Crop rotation and inter-dispersing different kinds of crops in the same field

Use of mineral/plant based fertilizers from non-animal sources

cover crops to produce "green manure" when tilled under the soil

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 29/08/2020 16:55

We feed grains to animals while humans go hungry
We waste a huge amount of food while humans go hungry. Feeding grain to animals is only part of the problem. And has been pointed out repeatedly on this thread, most British sheep and cattle are reared mostly on pasture, silage, and crops put down to give the land a rest from cereals.

Lakeside
But I don't think emotional language and pushing over simplistic solutions to more complicated issues actually helps.
Totally with you there.

MoiraRosesTransAtlanticDrawl · 29/08/2020 17:27

Almost 50 percent of the grains produced in the world are fed to livestock, yet there remain about 800 million people suffering from hunger and malnutrition mostly in the developing countries.

www.fao.org

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 29/08/2020 18:08

Almost 50 percent of the grains produced in the world are fed to livestock
And about a third of food that is produced is wasted.

40andginger · 29/08/2020 18:29

Waste food can be recycled

squeekums · 30/08/2020 05:03

I don't understand why everyone isn't vegetarian either
cos a life without bacon is no life at all.

Still catching up but couldn't ignore this. There is nothing rude or arrogant in stating that people who, like you, say they don't know or care where their food is coming from and say this in response to serious animal abuse coming to light, lack compassion. It is a straight up objective fact. It is not possible to know that the meat you are eating could have lived a horrific miserable life of pain and fear, and not care about that, and claim to have compassion.
People who know, and feel bad about it but don't feel able to stop eating meat for some reason have got compassion - hence feeling bad. But those like you and others who literally say they don't give a shit? Nope.

Why should I feel bad for eating a diet humans have for centuries? Why feel bad for nourishing my body?
Sorry you don't like honesty but it's better than a fake "oh I feel totes bad" all the while still eating meat.

I mean yeah in a perfect world all animals would be treated humanly but reality is, that won't happen. I won't add extra stress or cost to my life trying to stop it, shop around it or give up a food source I enjoy for it.
Take the shops, most shop on price and taste. Meat sections in Aus shops are huge, cos we LOVE our meat here. One of the biggest sellers during the big panic buys was meat. I can guarantee that people didn't give a fuck where it was from or who produced it. Push comes to shove, people shopping on morals is the first thing to go

40andginger · 30/08/2020 08:31

Veganism is on the rise all over!
I appreciate not everyone wants to be in a vegan diet because they feel like they will miss out but even to cut down on meat intake would be a start
Meat does taste good but its not good for your health(I appreciate not all meat is created equally) there's been multiple studies that show this
Personally I found giving up meat very easy and I really enjoy being plant based. I'm surprised my husband was able to do the same but he did! I genuinely never thought he would be happy on a plant based diet but he is.
My DD is only young she is happy she doesn't eat animals or drink their booby milk she thinks its pretty disgusting tbh

Every person makes the choice what they eat! But the world's meat consumption is a problem
I see alot of free roaming farm animals on the fields around where I live but Iike PP have said just because you see this the beef sandwich you pick up from the supermarket could have come from anywhere
Remember the zebu and horsemeat sandles
I do try to eat in season and although I love an avacado I only buy them every so often as a treat!
I find it hard to belive people don't care about the welfare of animals
I watched land of hope and glory last night! And I'm just so glad I don't eat meat anymore
Thanks to whoever mentioned that film on this thread

Doccomplaint · 30/08/2020 08:54

Animal Booby milk? Really?

40andginger · 30/08/2020 08:59

Yes really! My DD is 3 she was breastfed until 2.5 she knows the milk she had was for her as I'm her mum! she obviously thinks the milk from cows should go to their babies! Not to us obviously so yes really! And yes she knows we are also animals but she's not a cow or a goat or a cat
Doccomplaint

Doccomplaint · 30/08/2020 09:05

You call it animal booby milk? You can’t. Just say animal milk? You’re an adult ffs.

Doccomplaint · 30/08/2020 09:06

Random full stop. Sorry. Sentence should read

You can’t just say animal milk?

Or even just milk?

You sound infantile.

40andginger · 30/08/2020 09:16

Ohh and here come the insults lol

That's OK I'm if I sound infantile I'm chatting with my 3 year old that's what she calls it
She didn't call it breast milk with me either she called it booby milk

Bottom line is tho that it is milk for a calf not for human consumption

No need to insult people! that's just being nasty
Shows you are not a very nice person

MoiraRosesTransAtlanticDrawl · 30/08/2020 09:19

40andginger agree 100%

Swipe left for the next trending thread