Are our kids being thrown under the bus

[Pixxie7]

Chris Whitney has said that children are safe to go back to school because they are at low risk of complications from Covid.is this another case of politics being more important than lives?

I thought you were minimising what the experts currently believe is the main source of infection in schools - staff to staff transmission

But if the data is flawed, then it is important to stop propagating misinformation.

It is like Chris Whitty saying that teachers are not at increased risk compared to other professions according to ONS data taken when the vast majority of teachers and kids were at home.

Propagating misinformation is irresponsible and destroys public trust in all the advice being given.

The government are currently running a propaganda campaign, not a public health information one.

Not to mention loos.
In my huge secondary there are 2 female staff toilets in one room.
We have 2 X 20 minutes breaks for every female member of staff to access the toilet.
It is also entirely unventilated except for the door into the corridor

If you look at data and reports from countries where mass testing occurs then you see more evidence for more student - student and student - staff transmission.

I don't believe that's correct.

Ok give me a few minutes and I'll find some links. If anyone else wants to chip in feel free!

The government are currently running a propaganda campaign, not a public health information one.

The epidemiologist speaking on lbc last night was Scottish - based in Aberdeen I think.

Clav do you believe that it was wrong for Chris Whitty to say that according to ONS data teachers aren’t at an increased risk compared to other professions knowing that data won’t extrapolate to September?

Of course they should have shut initially. We were dealing with an unknown virus so we didn't know how badly children would be infected, and as many viruses affect children worse than adults who have stronger immune systems. it was a reasonable precaution. Plenty of twats knowledgeable with hindsight.

They need to return now with precautions in place.

Telling teachers to go and teach, but make sure that they do not take coronavirus into school, without mandatory masks for ANYONE (including children), is like telling a shop worker to go and do retail but make sure they do not take coronavirus into the shop, without a plastic till screen or mandatory masks for ANYONE (including customers). Yet it is not like that, everything is being done to protect the shop workers and absolutely nothing is being done to protect teachers & TAs. Have been teaching just over 40 years but, until now, did not realise just how much the government hates teachers !

@Bunnybigears

No it proves our children were badly let down by the government by the schools being shut in the first place.

Also agree with this

Both of these highlight the asymptomatic nature of children infected . The first also recommends the use of masks for students and staff in secondary school and staff in primary.
They acknowledged that child-adult and child-child are less likely than adult - adult. But they still happen!

None of this contradicts what I said. Accusing teachers of not socially distancing properly as drivers of school outbreaks when they are not testing asymptomatic child contacts is unreasonable!

www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/all-topics-z/coronavirus/threats-and-outbreaks/covid-19/facts/q-covid-19/q-covid-19-children-aged-0
www.massgeneral.org/news/press-release/Massachusetts-general-hospital-researchers-show-children-are-silent-spreaders-of-virus-that-causes-covid-19

Clav do you believe that it was wrong for Chris Whitty to say that according to ONS data teachers aren’t at an increased risk compared to other professions knowing that data won’t extrapolate to September?

His statement -
"Data from the UK (Office for National Statistics (ONS)) suggest teachers are not at increased risk of dying from COVID-19 compared to the general working-age population. ONS data identifies teaching as a lower risk profession (no profession is zero risk). International data support this."

And. "Little evidence of adult - child transmission in schools"

spreading the virus.

While there is evidence of transmission from adults to children in household settings, there is little evidence of this occurring within school environments.

Internationally teachers wear masks, have enough bloody space to socially distance, have much better classrooms and facilities in general! Also we have one of the highest class sizes in the world! In the smallest classrooms

WhyNotMe40
None of this contradicts what I said

I have only skip read the first link.

You posted;
"If you look at data and reports from countries where mass testing occurs then you see more evidence for more student - student and student - staff transmission."

Your link says;

"In summary, where COVID-19 in children has been detected and contacts followed-up, no adult contacts in school settings have been detected as COVID-19-positive during the follow-up period.The conclusion from these investigations is that children in school settings are not the primary drivers of COVID-19 transmission to adults."

Actually in the report children refers to the under 10s.

Yes Clav and we and he know the data (including international data) isn’t a fair representation of what secondary teachers will face in September and therefore is flawed.

Is he wrong to use flawed data to endorse a government message?

Here:

The younger the child, the less likely of transmission.
Secondary schools and staff should wear masks
www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks

There is no recent research on outbreaks involving secondary school pupils and staff in full returns without masks because no other country is so bloody stupid
But see the research on the outbreak in France from before lockdown. Plenty of student transmission.

www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.18.20071134v1

Look. We just want what other countries are doing - reasonable precautions with older students who are KNOWN to transmit at the same rate as adults. Even the PHE admit this.
So - masks for everyone who can wear them.
Extra funding and facilities.
As classrooms are so crappy and crowded and unventilated in this country we will probably also need blended learning especially in areas of high community transmission

@FinnyStory
"Now on the news it is even being reported that teachers must take every measure possible not to bring coronavirus into school !!!"

This makes perfect sense to me. I am increasing cross frustrated with colleagues who have decided there's no point following any rules through the summer because they'll be in school from September.

I \m not going to do anymore than anyone else to ensure that children can stay in schools, especially whilst, parents, politicians and the media are refusing to give me the same protection as everyone else.

Of course the best chance we have of opening schools safely and keeping them open is if everyone, staff and parents, takes every possible step to ensure the lowest possible levels in the community before we go back.

The point here is the correct one to make, it is the job of the community to make sure that schools open. Not just the reteaches.

Not to blame teachers, obviously, but it is very frustrating that some, supposedly educated, intelligent people are being so childish about it and refusing to take any responsibility.

And then you blame teachers!
It is equally annoying to see people falling for the propaganda that is being put out by the government, DfE, PHE and various "professionals" to protect there arses and jobs.

"Are our kids being thrown under a bus?"

No, that happened in March, and June, and then August (if your kids are in exams years).

WhyNotMe40

The study in your second link is reviewed here;

“In my opinion the headline of the press release is very misleading, because the study does not actually demonstrate that children spread the virus." ...

“The study is a valuable contribution to the study of COVID-19 in children, but the paper makes some bold claims regarding the role of children as silent spreaders of the COVID-19 virus. Without studies of transmission, and while focused only on symptomatic children who are a minority of the whole children cohort, these claims are largely unfounded.”

www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-study-claiming-children-are-silent-spreaders-of-sars-cov-2/

Although I am not qualified to say who is right.

Secondary schools and staff should wear masks

I am not disagreeing with you (I am undecided regarding masks in the classroom) - I am disagreeing with your comments that staff have not been the most important driver of transmission in schools so far - based on current evidence.

Ok so let's run with that.

Say staff are socially distanced (see staffroom and workroom closed).
Yet we are teaching for an hour in an unventilated room where previously teachers have been exhaling for an hour.
And then only 2 toilets for the entire female staff to use in 2 X 20 minutes breaks.

How do we solve staff to staff transmission with no extra funding or facilities?

I'll concede that evidence from schools where there is no ventilation or social distancing or masks is currently limited and inconclusive, especially in the over 10s. But we will soon have some from PHE.
Oh no we won't will we? I wonder why

staff have not been the most important driver of transmission in schools so far - based on current evidence.

And you agree that current evidence is lacking due to

1. children not being tested in many situations
2. track and trace not being available/adequate in many situations
3. scenarios where there is evidence doesn’t replicate the proposed situation in England next week.

Fair?

Ah here we go:
No masks stuff abd more students than staff affected

www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/03/868507524/israel-orders-schools-to-close-when-covid-19-cases-are-discovered

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/05/covid-19-may-spread-more-easily-schools-than-thought-report-warns