Sexual harassment is an almost universal experience for women

[severeine]

I was having a conversation with a well-meaning male friend who was struggling to believe this. I think it is a case of not realising because he hasn't asked/spoken to enough women and isn't a perpetrator himself. For most women I think it is for to say this starts well before even the teen years and persists for 3 or more decades. I have experienced it myself, from school to work, in random situations and still do now. You don't need to be attractive, I am I suppose what you'd call average, you just need to be a woman, ideally unaccompanied. I was talking to one female friend who was harassed every single day by strangers when she lived in Paris, which is one place I've heard of it happening a lot, only it is everywhere. I wonder what your experiences have been?

I was born in 1970 and by the age of 6 had been flashed at twice. Maybe the prevalence of CCTV has put off flashers in the last few years as it doesn't seem to be such a thing any more?

I also developed breasts aged 11 and have always had a big bust so that was fun.
From aged 11 when I used to walk to and from school, and men following me/ catcalling, through school with boys thinking they could just grab my boobs randomly or undo my bra through my shirt during lessons.
Through my teens when just out and about men would catcall/ shout, sit next to me, opposite me on trains and engage me in completely unwanted and inappropriate conversations that I was too shy and uncomfortable to just walk away from.

I've been flashed at as an adult a few times, had men masturbating in cars as they stopped for directions. Men on tubes grabbing my arse, frotting up against me in packed carriages, men in clubs touching me without my consent, co-workers calling me frigid when I didn't fall about laughing at sexist chat, men grabbing my breast as they pass me on the tube escalator. So all levels of abuse up to and including being raped by my ex husband.

I recently called out my stepfather's sexist joking the other week ( it was relatively tame but the "punchline" rested on the fact that the woman was ugly) and got a barrage of abuse that just stopped short of calling me a commie lesbian. I'd hope to Christ that he's not someone who would ever act that way in public, but when misogyny is so casual and ingrained, who knows?

I'm really surprised by the amount of women who are posting that they have never experienced it. I'm nothing special to look at, but I've had countless experiences of sexual harassment. From young teenage years onwards. Catcalls, whistles in the street, "get your tits out", loud comments about my body which have been completely unsolicited as I was going about my own business, to older men (and boys) groping me in public and more serious assaults. I've had men following me around town and to my bus stop after nights out, I've had to go into shops and ask for help because some weird old man has followed me for an hour and I didn't want to lead him to my home (I was 15). I was groped by an instructor when I was on a school holiday (I was 15) and when I went crying to tell a teacher I was accused of being silly and of having a crush on this older guy. The next time it happened I didn't bother telling the teachers. I've had men do it in front of my mum, which was mortifying. For me, as a teenage girl and all through my 20s, it was such a part of 'normal' life, that I kind of just accepted it and imagined it's something that happened to every woman.

@AntsInPenzance Then start your own thread about it, instead of hijacking women's threads.

It happened as a child, as I'm a survivor of childhood SA, along with my DSis. So I suffer from PTSD and am always on high alert, so I might be guilty of overreacting at times.

That said, used to happen a lot when I did a lot of travelling. For example, I was harassed at an airport in Turkey by a man purporting to be airport security. He asked me for my passport, which I should have queried. I stood my ground and after a very uncomfortable few minutes he returned the passport to me (probably because he saw that I was British rather than Eastern European, which I still am in appearance, as my abusive F was Czech. That was a very unnerving episode.

It doesn't happen to me now, but then I'm 51, overweight and therefore fairly invisible. It's also never happened when I've been out with my DDs, as Mums are mostly invisible anyway. But I've noticed when in pubs that there will be men who try to chat to me, complete strangers. No woman does that, only men. It may be that they really are trying to be friendly, but I find it quite intrusive, especially when I'm quite obviously not interested in talking to them.

I also

I'm perfectly average looking and mostly dress like a bloke. I even get it in work, where I wear a supremely unflattering uniform.
Last night a man told me he was 'sure I was a lezzer but he'd still fuck me anyway'.

It's honestly so common, especially post-lockdown that I don't even get worked up about it anymore.

My adopted DDs are 11 and 8. DD2 was groomed online via the roblox chatroom, which was a huge shock to discover (I hadn't realised that there was a chatroom!). I was alerted when she spoke about her 'internet boyfriends'. DD1 will be starting high school in September; I am worried about the next few years.

I'm amazed at the number of posters claiming they've never experienced it.

Yep. I was unfortunate to develop early and have large breasts. So, unless I am with DH, I have been leered, catcalled and occasionally groped since the age of 9.

These days I get pissed off instead of polite. It took 30 years to get to that level of confidence, though.

I am teaching my daughter how to punch and when to run away.

It used to happen when I was a young teen (mostly travelling on tfl during rush hour) and I stopped noticing it until last year. I was walking ds1 to school and ds2 tagged along and a random man walking the opposite direction decided to yell nice ass. We couldn’t cross the road safely so I made sure we gave him plenty of space to walk pass yet he got close and slapped my bum! I couldn’t make a scene in front of dc who had not noticed anything wrong.

I think it depressingly common - low level shit - unwanted sexual comments and touching but I think it worse in some parts of the UK than others - it's hard to tell as obviously I've been different ages in different place - but has been worse in some locations than others.

So not uinversal but incrediably common and often not talked about.

It started for me at 11 - bad area for it and I developed early and it's alway been there and a worry as DDs get older and go out more without us.

MIL thinks it doesn't happen much and has said as much to me but her friends have had it happen so she knows it does but belives it rare. However she grew up and has always lived in a close knit community and her family and FIL family who she was with from a young age - 6 ft 2 from with family and mates similar sizes- were very well known. I think that gave her an unseen to her level of protection from even low level harrisment.

[quote tectonicplates]@AntsInPenzance Then start your own thread about it, instead of hijacking women's threads.[/quote]
Not hijacking, just responding to a specific poster who said men aren't told to smile, not in a prove you wrong or mansplaining way, just saying it's shitty but happens to women and men.

@AntsInPenzance

Proportionately?

I was teaching my 10 year old about institutional racism yesterday. He got it.

The harassment of men is done in a different way.
I’ve heard many women talk to and about men in a provocative, inappropriate & sleazy way. It’s grim and if reversed would be seen as sexual harassment. However because it’s done by women it is seen as ‘having a laugh’.
As I said, grim.

But this thread isn't about men. Is that OK?

[quote chickenyhead]@AntsInPenzance

Proportionately?

I was teaching my 10 year old about institutional racism yesterday. He got it.[/quote]
Do you mean women are proportionately to experience sexual harrassment? Yes they are and it's awful and I'd never claim otherwise. I was just responding to one poster's specific comment about being told to smile.

Genuinely sorry if people are annoyed by me posting in this thread, that wasn't my intention and I won't post again.

@AntsInPenzance

There is no need to apologise. I just think that it is such an important discussion in a patriarchal society that the proportionality is key to understanding the issues.

Some women are disgusting.

The harassment of men is done in a different way.
I’ve heard many women talk to and about men in a provocative, inappropriate & sleazy way. It’s grim and if reversed would be seen as sexual harassment. However because it’s done by women it is seen as ‘having a laugh’.
As I said, grim.

I have had inappropriate touching and grabbing by women in both the work place and when out socially, I have been on the receiving end of some pretty crappy comments and have been shouted at from a car while out running. The difference is that I have never been in fear of my life when a women has behaved appallingly towards me. I am a physically big bloke who does not have to worry as much about getting injured for turning down a womens advances. Generally speaking I only have to worry about getting beaten up by other men when out and about.

The difference is that I have never been in fear of my life when a women has behaved appallingly towards me.

Thank you for saying this. It isn't at all the same thing. (Not that it's an excuse for women behaving badly, obviously.)

But this thread isn't about men. Is that OK?

The OP said:

AIBU?
Sexual harassment is an almost universal experience for women

Impossible to answer the OP without mentioning men.

The difference is that I have never been in fear of my life when a women has behaved appallingly towards me. I am a physically big bloke who does not have to worry as much about getting injured for turning down a womens advances.

Very true in many cases. Not all sadly.

Loads of times. Interestingly I lived in the Netherlands for a while and while I did have a few unpleasant experiences (and it is far from a feminist utopia) it was nothing like the frequency that Ive had in the UK/other parts of the world. It was actually unpleasant being back in the UK because I wasnt acclimatised anymore if you see what I mean.
(This completely excludes the Amsterdam area which is packed with drunken male tourists on stag dos who assume all Dutch women must be prostitutes - )

@SweetPetrichor

Nope, never experienced it. I suppose I'm just not pretty enough! None of my female friends have either. I think it's not as common as women like to claim.

Despite this, the very vast majority on this thread are agreeing.

And you have no idea if your friends have or haven't. Not everyone likes to talk about it (especially if there friend is skeptical that it's even a real claim).

The difference is that I have never been in fear of my life when a women has behaved appallingly towards me. I am a physically big bloke who does not have to worry as much about getting injured for turning down a womens advances. Generally speaking I only have to worry about getting beaten up by other men when out and about.

^ 100 times this. Thank you for understanding and pointing out the difference.

I've talked to my DH about the innate fear men can instill in women. He didn't understand at first, I think he does now. He's generally not a very intimidating man, not aggressive and not very big (although still a lot bigger than the average woman).

Since we've talked and I've told him about some of my experiences he has consciously changed his behaviour to go out of his way not to intimidate women. So if he's walking behind a lone woman he will either cross the road, slow right down or call me (especially if it's at night), he will choose not to sit near a lone woman on public transport, consciously gives more physical room to women in queues etc.

Yep, M->F and F-> harassment are almost entirely incomparable.

They're potentially equivalent within a workplace, if the harasser has seniority within the organisation, in that situation the imbalance of power is just the same.

But otherwise there's a world of difference. F->M harassment in the street, between strangers, is 99 times of out of 100 nothing to the M he's just not vulnerable in any way.

Very true in many cases. Not all sadly

As someone else has pointed out women can and do behave appallingly. The dynamics and outcomes are just different. Working in the night time economy for any length of time soon puts to bed the idea that blokes are the only folk to think they can act badly with impunity. It is just from my experience when blokes behave badly there is a lot more blood involved.

Working in the night time economy for any length of time soon puts to bed the idea that blokes are the only folk to think they can act badly with impunity. It is just from my experience when blokes behave badly there is a lot more blood involved.

Yes, I agree.