to wish that pushy parents would stop pretending to be religious in order to get a place for Lily at the faith school?

[Caroline1852]

If these schools are "better" it is because parents are clamouring for places, thereby artificially raising the standards. Left to their own, the number of faith schools would dwindle dramatically. There are nearly 5,000 C of E schools, most of them oversubscribed, yet bottoms on church pews are falling (save for a lot of red-faced couples and their 10 year olds). I have nothing against faith schools by the way.
Grrrr it's that time of year again!

Emsmum - lol

My friend (whose daughter might be called Lily) has suddenly started going to church. We both know it is in preparation for a school place. I wish she would admit it.

Caroline - well, presumably she doesn't admit it to you because you disapprove and she doesn't want to create a rift in your relationship. Perfectly rational course of action in the circumstances.

SueBaroo - no need to believe in God to be a Christian IMO - the minority of Christians who believe in God are usually called "practising Christians" to distinguish them from the very large cultural group that Christians form.

Oh come on Anna, I'm waiting with bated breath on how you can be a christian and not believe in God, I need to tidy up. Quick response please!

Oh ok, I'm none the wiser though.

Well, we'd need another thread to deal with that one and I don't have time this evening

So people who aren't practising christians don't believe in God? Or maybe they do believe in God but don't go to church. It is possible.

cornsilk - sure, it's not a perfect definition by any means, just one in pretty widespread use.

Anna - So do you think that the majority of christians don't actually believe in God?

So what makes them Christian, as a cultural group? (and you're very naughty; if you didn't have time to discuss it tonight, you shouldn't have said it. Now I'm going to be baffled all night [mild tantrum emoticon])

Oh FGS, why are you so exercised about it?

So she chooses to pretend to be a christian to get access to a good school. Why are you so outraged about it? Why shouldn't her Lily go to a good school? Do you think Lily should go to a crap school?

I really think we need another thread but I'm going to log off now, I have to take care of my family .

Christians are a cultural group first and foremost in my opinion and if anyone ever dares suggest I'm not a Christian just because I don't believe in God (I can't, it doesn't fit rationally with my education or experience of life) I get very shirty . I think Christianity is a culture - a shared core of moral values and a modus operandi for society.

Blimey. Then you'd be the first atheist I've met who would be quite shirty about someone saying we didn't live in a Christian society.

I am, of course, horrified that you think looking after your family is a higher priority than a debate on MN. What is the world coming to?

Hmm, I think a lot of vicars would disagree with you Anna.

They'd say christianity is a personal relationship with God, not just a useful social code.

Christianity is a religion, really. For some that means a code, for others it's a a spiritual relationship thing.

Personally I find it unhelpful to say that you're a Christian just by virtue of living in the West, because it leads on to ridiculous confusion from, say, Muslims complaining about the 'decadent values of Christians', like materialism etc. when what they're describing isn't Christian at all, it's just western and actually a product of the enlightenment and modernism.

But I'm a label junkie, and I like my lables tidy.

Definitely scope for another thread...but

a)Christians are believers in, and followers of Christ the Son of God

I used to be one.
b)I am not now because God disappeared in a small puff of logic. I am a secular atheist.

I am still culturally the same person I was
I am now NOT a Christian. I'm a western european. I'm no more a christian by virtue (if that aint an awful choice of word) of my country's history than I am an imperialist.

I suspect thats about the size of it for a lot of white westerners- either (a) or (b). Or (c) which is never-bothered-to-think-about-it ... for which I coined the term apatheist .

oo, I like you EmsMum. I must say, you do get a better class of ex-Christian round these 'ere parts.

It is very easy for non-Christians to just assume that the churches are empty bar people who pretend to be religious to get a place in school.

My sons school has a very florishing community. I see other parents from his class in Church all the time, at least 50% each time, not the same all the time, because some prefer the 7 am service.... and lets face it, you may not be able to go every week. Some do voluntary work in the Church, cleaning duties, laundering and ironing napkins, etc. The Church is full to the point of bursting. In fact, if you are in the back row you can hardly hear Father C through the din of children!

Though I admit that there are probably people around who do, I find the very notion that most do it a little insulting.

Do you actually know how hard it is to get into a good church school? Who in their right minds would spend just about every sunday in Church for a good three years prior to application deadline just to stand with a fighting chance if they lack faith?

When I went to the open day of a very popular local church school the headmistress took one look around and said:
"About 60% of you dont need to apply, and you know who you are. I dont know you from Church, so you wont get in."

That any parent would think that one school was better than another because of its religious label is crazy. Crazy, yes but it doesn't stop people flocking to certain faith schools and maintaining their oversubscribed statistics. In some instances these schools can pick and choose so that they don't get too many poorly behaved students - they can go to the undersubscribed schools which therefore remain just that. It just perpetuates this irritating attitude that you have to get your child in to the 'best' school in your area. What happens to all the other schools that the motivated parents don't want to send their motivated children to? The answer is the situation that we've got, a few schools that everyone wants to get into and quite a number struggling with with those that did not get in. The proportions of different groups end up skewed and not representative of the local community.
I think that 'choice' has not done us any favours and that fewer gas guzzlers on the school run and more kids walking to their local school would not be a bad thing.

Where I am from you are simply allocated the school closest to you. No applications involved. This means that every school has a fairly similar mix of pupils, labelling a school good or bad for this reason is pointless. Of course schools are inspected regards their results like here, but this is not used to get applicants to the school, it is a measure each school strives for internally. It works pretty well.

With you all the way starrynight! C'mon Essex sort it out!

Come into the fold Anna...
You be one of us darn damn heathen atheists and ya oughta be proud of it. Yee-hah.

Oh, I certainly don't think I'm a Christian "by virtue of living in the West". I'm a Christian because I was brought up with an Anglican value code and I still largely adhere to it, like many, many people . There are other religions in Western society - my partner is French Jewish. His value set is not the same as mine. French Catholics have a pretty different value set to Anglicans. There are subsets of Christianity.

You don't stop being English because you go and live abroad and you don't stop being Christian because your education and experience have helped you understand that God cannot exist.

Oh there's a lot of christians by upbringing who are atheists. I think most atheists I know are "cultural christians". And most agnostics too. After all, until recently, most people got baptised under one religion or other, so no surprises there.

bonitaMia

LittleBella - the vicars (and other ministers of the Church) I have talked to about this generally value the social and moral code above the "personal relationship with God"