to wish that pushy parents would stop pretending to be religious in order to get a place for Lily at the faith school?

[Caroline1852]

If these schools are "better" it is because parents are clamouring for places, thereby artificially raising the standards. Left to their own, the number of faith schools would dwindle dramatically. There are nearly 5,000 C of E schools, most of them oversubscribed, yet bottoms on church pews are falling (save for a lot of red-faced couples and their 10 year olds). I have nothing against faith schools by the way.
Grrrr it's that time of year again!

Anna - Did you have these discussions at a vicars' and tarts' party? If yes, perhaps they were not proper vicars?

I am open minded about the existence of God because although I can't make it stack up for me personally, I know a few brilliant people who are devout Christians (as well as being very nice people and very dear friends). I am quite prepared to believe that God eludes me rather than does not exist. I prefer now to believe in the power of good over evil and live by Christian principles. I think it is lovely if people draw comfort from their beliefs.

No Caroline - with the vicar who married my sister and BIL, with the (very old and wise) prêtre who recently baptised my friend's son... in fact, he did a whole sermon about it

bonitamia, in your example, you might not like the fact that your local schools were non-faith, but atleast they would agree to educate your children. It would be more accurate to describe a situation where the only school you were allowed to go to was a catholic school, but where you were obliged to pay for all the other schools.

I think that as Unquiet Dad has said before, faith schools make about as much sense as deciding admissions based on football teams. (1st criteria supporters of local football team, 2nd criteria supporters of any football team, 3rd criteria supporters of a team in another 'world sport' i.e. rugby or cricket. If your chosen sport is tiddliwinks forget it.)

But it doesn't matter if a school agrees to educate my children, if that is not the school of my choice. I think there should be more and better schools, faith and non-faith, so that choice is real for everyone.

Exactly Madameplatypus.
No-one has yet to justify why 'faith' has any place in education. You can maintain your faith at home and church. Education should be open to all. The only aspects of 'faith' which are relevant are the moral codes . A school can educate to a moral code without needing its prospective pupils to prove they are capable of following it by church attendance.
The main reason why people are pushing to get in to faith schools is that in their area, said school happens to provide them with a way of avoiding the 'bad' schools and therby the children they perceive to be undesirable too.

Lucky you bonitaMia being in a position to turn down a school because it is not the school of your choice.

Unfortunately schools are not cans of beans on a supermarket shelf. All the state can do is provide places to meet the need of children in the locality and hope the number doesn't fluctuate too much. They cannot shrink schools one year and expand them the next.

People turn down schools that are not of their choice all the time, that is why they move houses, pretend to go to church or find any other way to trick the system. I am just saying that the distinction between faith and not-faith is irrelevant. It's the distinction between good and bad that's important. If people have the impression that faith schools are good, is another matter. Maybe the question is why are they good. Is the solution to improve the education system to ban the schools that are seen as better so that all schools are equal, not necessarily good? is that possible at all?

whereismysuntan, I agree to a certain extent. I think that reading, writing, science, and arithmetics have no faith. The basic moral values: you don't kill, don't steal, you should be nice to each other, etc will be the same in all schools, BUT there are other moral values that differ: consider the catholic views regarding abortion, euthanasia, divorce, sex, etc. You may say that these are not subjects of education, but the underlying worldview comes through when teaching about the origin of life and universe, biology and human life (when is a human being human?), sex (biology and practicalities: here's how you put a condom - fine. What about the meaning of sex? Its emotional, social and psycological consequences? Is it oK to start as soon as possible and with as many partners you can get? etc) All that is part of education, and it makes sense to me that people who share the same views regarding these issues will want to have their children educated accordingly in and out of the home environment.

i meant "when does a human being start being a human life? (embryo stage, at 3 months, etc?"

It would be precisely the Catholic views on sex education and abortion which would worry me. They are biased and would be presented as such. If there is no particular 'faith' vested interest group on the governing body of the school then these issues will have more of a chance of being discussed on a factual and logical basis. My school choices for dd at secondary level are severely compromised/reduced because of faith schools. The local non-faith comp has the worst results in the county and no 6th form. The school which everyone lies to get into is CoE and demands church attendance. The balance of our local school is skewed by the exodus of local middle class families to the CoE school. The second nearest school is Catholic; it has much better results than the non-faith comp and we would (bizarrely) stand a better chance of getting in (on distance) than to the CoE. But I do not want my daughter educated in a school espousing the Catholic faith as I have significant objections to its teachings regarding sex,abortion etc. If the 'faith' schools were made into non-faith schools it would restore the balance of intake to the schools around here and be alot better for everyone.

I can accept that you don't agree with the catholic moral views and don't want them for your children. But other people do, so catholic schools exist to meet that demand. If they didn't exist, and all faith schools were forced to be turned into non-faith, then those people would have no choice and I don't think that would be fair. I think as long as they don't uphold values which involve hurting other people, faith schools will always have a place in society.

bonitaMia - if the distinction is irrelevant why not abolish it?

Faith people have a choice, non-faith people have less choice.

Hmm. I am a practising Catholic. My ds goes to a non-faith school. I am also a Science teacher and have taught Science and PSHE in non-faith schools.

IMO, Science lesson are not the place for any religious 'world view'. The origins of the universe and the development of an embryo can, and must, surely, be taught without reference to religious beliefs. I have of course had religious beliefs brought up in my lessons, particularly on evolution, and am happy to discuss the nature of the evidence with any child who asks, but I do stress that we are in a Science lesson, and that is where our focus must lie.

And as for sex education - I can't think of a situation where children would be encouraged to have sex as early and with as many partners as possible

The emotions, choices, responsibilites and health issues surrounding sex have been addressed in each of the schools I have taught in in such a way as would not undermine my own beliefs - in that children tend to be given information and have their questions answered, rather than be given a moral code to shape their behaviour.

I agree TellusMater, that's why I said biology, science, language, etc have no faith.
But if a kid asks whether abortion is OK you cannot respond to that with facts. It is a question about morality. This is what I mean when I talk about "worldview". It doesn't change the science, it changes the interpretation of it in the light of a religious belief.
As for sex education, it is not whether children are encouraged to have sex early in any schools, it is a question of whether they are actively encouraged not to, IMO.
I would say most parents want a moral code (however diluted or vague) to shape their children's behaviour and I cannot see what is wrong with that.

No. You don't respond with facts. But neither do you respond with opinion. You discuss the issues.

And of course I want to provide a moral code for my children. And I do. So why does the school need to?

In a discussion, people offer opinions and have points of view shaped by their convictions, beliefs and non-beliefs, experiences, etc. Once the "objective" facts have been put on the table the rest is subjective. The best you can hope for is that the discussion is reasoned, polite, open and intellectually honest.
Why does the school need to offer a moral code? Because children spend at school a looooong time every day

UQD, i am not sure you would get uniformly good schools if you banned the faith ones. That's what I meant, that people should focus on asking for an improvement of education standards in all schools, and particularly in the non-faith ones since these are open to everyone, but that doesn't mean ban the others.

Must go now. Interesting thread and nicely put views...

I don't think it is the place of teachers to offer opinions on these subjects, I really don't. It actually is possible to have a discussion on these issues without saying what you believe. Evolution is something that came up a lot for me as Biology teacher. I have never offered my personal opinion on that, or abortion, or contraception. But have led many interesting discussions on those topics.

Interstingly, at 7am this morning on R4 there was something in the news about teaching science with respect to creationism. Unfortunately I did not hear the whole report because one DS could not find his rugby boots (he had left them in the car) and our smallest member was in desperate need of a clean nappy. Perhaps there will be something about it in the Sunday papers.

Teaching Science with respect to creationism - does not compute...

Tellusmater - I agree.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7028639.stm