to wish that pushy parents would stop pretending to be religious in order to get a place for Lily at the faith school?

[Caroline1852]

If these schools are "better" it is because parents are clamouring for places, thereby artificially raising the standards. Left to their own, the number of faith schools would dwindle dramatically. There are nearly 5,000 C of E schools, most of them oversubscribed, yet bottoms on church pews are falling (save for a lot of red-faced couples and their 10 year olds). I have nothing against faith schools by the way.
Grrrr it's that time of year again!

Never said I liked the French system either. I don't think that's necessarily the route to go down.

Surely "even if 1000 people agree with you that doesn't make you right" can be applied to any argument on here. It's all about how well you make your case and how much evidence you provide.

I refer back to my Hobbiting remarks below.

UQD - so how, in your proposed system, will you provide a faith education to those who seek it? Fee-paying schools only?

Like anything outside the mainstream that state education provides - if you want it, unfortunately, you have to pay for it.

I can't see how anybody's faith is going to be adversely affected by their having to discuss it at school, rather than having it accepted unquestioningly.

Before anyone screams injustice, you may as well protest that it is "unfair" that my child's school doesn't do lacrosse, or that you can't study Latin at our local secondary.

Gosh, how discriminatory can you get - a child can only have a religious education if his/her parents can afford to pay for it?

Come on.... Christianity is part of our culture.

Going round in circles.
I am not trying to suggest amendments to the current system. I am trying to suggest a total re-think of the basis on which the system is provided.

And Christianity should indeed be studied as part of our culture. I have never said that I want schools to exist in some sort of vacuum. After all, it is impossible to study art, Shakespeare and much other literature without referring to the Bible. But it should be studied in the way that I studied Greek and Egyptian myths at school - and if you want to teach people that it's all true, up to you. Do it at home.

Well, yes, we see everyday how human rights are open to interpretation when it comes to how to implement them and to what extent. I just wanted to point out that "right" is a better word than "need" in this matter. As I said, rights are debatable, and that word too seems to be misused currently with people having the right to do this and that or to have this or that. But I won't go into those.

"It's all about how well you make your case and how much evidence you provide."
Nothing to do with expressing the mejority view then?
So back to the majority legislating for the minority. If the existence of Grammar schools, which were originally designed to cream off those with academic potential, were dependent upon the majority vote - they would be gone. Ditto taxing those who earn in excess of £150,000 per annum at a rate of 90%. I value diversity and can't stand the dumbers down.

I have no great desire to be backed by the "majority". That's not why I am here. Even if I were, I'd be suspicious - the "majority" of newspaper readers read the Sun, after all....

"Gosh, how discriminatory can you get - a child can only have a religious education if his/her parents can afford to pay for it? "

Um, as far as I am aware church and Sunday school are free. Bibles can also be picked up in many hotels.

Anna - There was an interesting article in the Sunday Times (yesterday's) about education in France. Perhaps you saw it, if not it is here :
property.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/property/overseas/article2587983.ece

"Bibles can also be picked up in many hotels" lol. I am just off to the local travel-lodge to indulge in a spot of bible reading - it's only £40.99 Friday to Sunday.

• Ok, you can have a free 3-course-meal at this table by the window, overlooking this beautiful beach, or you can have a BLT sandwich in the loo (no chair provided by us, and you bring your own cutlery and plates, unless you want to pick up a used one from a table, on your way to the ladies). You can of course, -if you pay- hire a room in our magnificent restaurant and eat whatever you want.

- Hang on, but I am already paying for this facilities and for the service through taxes, like everyone else! - Are you? Yes, but you believe in dressing salads with oil and vinegar ONLY Who in his right mind...? Never mind. No, sorry. We cannot accomodate you with the normal people. You would alienate them. Sorry. Loo is this way...

So, which dinner is it going to be? Let me think. Am I really free to choose? Maybe the question is what we understand for "freedom".

"the "majority" of newspaper readers read the Sun, after all.... "
That is inaccurate, it is the single title with the biggest readership but the majority or newspaper readers do NOT read the Sun.

You know what I meant, so stop splitting hairs. It's the "single largest party" in newspaper terms. What is the majority view on faith schools? Very difficult to gauge without someone questioning the provenance of the research. And should a government go along with this?

I think Lilly is a lovely name

My story is this - i am a lapsed catholic. When i had DD1 i was a single mum, didnt attend church and i didnt feel that i "should" send my DD to the local catholic school. An excellent school that i attended that has an envied reputation. It was the biggest mistake of my life, i sent dd to the local state school and for juniors i sent her to CofE as a realised i had made a mistake by not sending her to the catholic school because the ramifications of this have followed her school career. She went to the state secondary and got lost in the crowd, her junior school was rubbish too. OK so this is only a reflection on our LOCAL situation as i cannot comment generally.

Now i have DD2, she is christened a catholic and i have attended church recently although have stopped since it became difficult with DD2 wanting to run around and generally whining for an hour. Her name is down for the catholic school. I imagine that nearer the time i will start attending Mass again as our priest is a blardy old stickler (from the stone ages if you ask me - but you gotta love him) and wont sign your form to help with school entry unless you attend. My standing as a catholic has not changed since i had DD, im still very much a lapsed catholic apart from my recent attendence following the death of my father which helped me a great deal. Does that make me a pushy hypocritical mother? I want a catholic upbringing for my DD2, i regret not doing this for DD1. BUT i dont go to church, i DO have faith and i am a catholic deep down (well it never leaves you does it) so does that mean my DD is not entitled to this good standard of education? As i say, this school is the best school in my area and feeds into better secondary schools.

What does make me though is the fact that most sundays the church is fairly full but we could always get a seat wherever we want to sit, THEN for the week that the secondary kids need the form signed to get a free bus pass, the church is packed to the brim, standing room only - now that is hypocritical.

UQD - It is difficult to guage what the religious requirement for schools in reality as Lily's parents confuse matters. By quite a wide margin I suspect.

Re your Sun readership inaccuracy - I am not splitting hairs - just pointing out an inaccuracy (I thought you were a stickler for scientific fact-based evidence. I thought perhaps you were going to come back and say that it has been proved that the readership of the Sun was x100 its circulation figure as everyone reads the discarded copy on the train, at the barbers, at the Chinese takeaway.

Don't they ask them to come for longer lucyellensmum? I'm surprised a one-off is deemed enough for a free bus pass.

For what it's worth I like the name Lily too... Probably having a Blue Kangaroo flashback to when n DD was 3.

I suppose we could go by the census, but that's ambiguous as the 2001 question was phrased a) in the context of ethnicity and b) as "what is your religion" rather than "do you have a religion and if so what is it?" I'd like to see that changed for the 2011 census.

There is a definition problem. There was a BHA survey which put Humanism at 61% or something - could find the link but can't be arsed right now - but anyone who wanted to argue against that data could probably do so. A lot of people who aren't religious may not say they're actively Humanist. I didn't for a long time. And I've never liked "atheist" as it implies a norm (theist) whch one is a-, i.e. not. Like me saying I am an "a-martian" or an "a-reptile."

I think if people were asked "do you practice any of the following religions", the christian result may be somewhat closer to the 5% truth.

we may have to accommodate the Jedi followers and have Star Wars celebrations instead of Xmas ...

as long as my family are there and I get roast potatoes and presents, Star Wars festival is just fine by me.

Personally I would rather my DS not go to a faith school. However if the state is going to insist on funding them, they either must give me a good/reasonable quality alternative or give me equal right of access to the faith school.

I'd take an average non-faith school over a good faith school any day.

What if they started demanding Star Wars schools for Jedis? With compulsory daily assembly in which everyone had to "feel the force..."?

thats sounds quite fun actually. far better than my school assemblies were.

We occasionally go to the family service which is once a month which is about as much as I feel I can make my 2 young children sit through (3.5 & 1.5 years). Have decided that when my children are a bit older they can start Sunday School - determined that they'll understand literary allusions even if they have no faith!

Mentioned this to a mum at toddler class who gave me a knowing look and said she, "wasn't going to play that game" the suggestion being that it's the only reason for any child to go!

Now wondering if their attendance will be viewed with suspicion and should I feel pleased that this might get them into a school I didn't think they could attend?