Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think private schooling should be abolished

999 replies

year5teacher · 13/08/2020 15:25

Just to preface, I’m not criticising individual parents. You have to do what you consider best for your child - for example if the choice was a private school with excellent dyslexia support and a state school that was notoriously bad, for example, you must make the correct judgement for your child.

Just to get that out the way so the thread isn’t flooded with “well I sent DC to private school because...”. I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about the system as a whole.

AIBU to believe it’s morally wrong for us as a society to allow children of higher earners to access a generally better level of education, which in turn can affect their trajectories for the rest of their lives?

OP posts:
VinylDetective · 13/08/2020 23:22

[quote DoubleTweenQueen]@VinylDetective How so? Companies and organisations have to be more productive and successful year on year. Globalisation has brought ruthless competition, They have to go with the brightest and best over anything else.[/quote]
The brightest and the best aren’t just the kids with the richest parents. I’d have thought that was blindingly obvious.

sst1234 · 13/08/2020 23:23

@Andante57

Bouncycastle12 I think they should be abolished, and I went to a public school and will probably send my children to one - so I feel like a hypocrite. But it’s a truly shit system and horribly grotesquely unfair

You are a massive hypocrite. You disapprove of private education and want it abolished yet you send your children to private school.
Your children must be extremely confused that they are being made to go to a school which their mother loathes and disapproves of.

Who says champagne socialist is an untrue characterization. It’s very much live and kicking.
kittenpeak · 13/08/2020 23:25

Also, and controversial here. If private schools don't exist (and lets ban private health care, 5* hotels, Rolex watches and 1st class plane tickets while we're at it) why would you aspire to be the absolute best in your career? If you couldn't achieve the absolute best, and everyone had the same, would you want to work as hard? Shall we ban Waitrose? Shall we ban international travel? I'm not comparing supermarkets to a child's education, but my point is that I think it's important there are choices available. If I can afford to send me children to a brilliant school with amazing opportunities, amazing school trips, then I Will.

And no, I can't afford private school!

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia · 13/08/2020 23:26

No because l believe in diversity and choice. There is no compulsory private pay as you go schooling so if you don't want to pay you have the option of tax payer funded paid for "free" schooling. This is unsurprisingly paid for by someone else and not you (apart from your tax contributions). Unsurprisingly it is likely to be funded from many of those who have more resources and so pay more tax and possibly also the same wealth creators and employers/business entrepreneurs.

In addition there are always a few examples of high achieving students from socially economically challenging demographics who will with natural intellect and ability despite the odds, come up through the ranks and say make it to Oxbridge and read a sought after and exceedingly competitive subject such as law, jurisprudence, medicine, engineering etc (amongst other challenging university subjects).

To take this concept to the very core you are essentially either wishing for uniformity where the whole population are identical ie at more or less same level in any/every relative benchmark be it intelligence, wealth or other attributes which differentiate people and creates a hierarchy/ranking etc.

Even in hardline militant communist society there is no equality. Most say in Cuba, North Korea are poor but there are massive differences right at the top and the ruling elites etc. Some are evidently more equal than others.

In life there is sadly no equality. Some one will be better than you and conversely some one will be worst. Not everyone is the entrepreneur business owner or political leader or CEO etc and someone will inevitably be the cleaner, driver, manual labourer etc.

It would be absolutely amazing if everyone was relatively equal and say prosperous, middle class and well educated. That nation I don't think exist and I personally think from my experience that Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan and Norway, Denmark, Iceland and Sweden is possibly the nearest to that ultimate utopia (for some). And even in these nations some of the less desirable low level roles are imported from overseas less developed poorer nations.

So going back to the original poster's initial proposition I do not agree that private pay yourself pay as you go schooling should be banned. There will always be a demand as they are essentially just business as say with private nurseries for babies and young pre school infants. There are always consistently highest ranked top "free" state sector schools which tend to produce a comparable and sometimes higher academic attainment. Though I suspect will not include all the other extracurricular enrichment activities. Or at least not to the same standard.

I hope this makes sense and open to be persuaded by a suitably robust rebuttal.

jakeyboy1 · 13/08/2020 23:26

I generally agree with you OP and I say that as someone fairly right wing but I seem to have a fairly left wing approach to education! That said there are many issues with the state sector so I see the need for parental choice in its current form. Academies for one I think are a disaster and will come unstuck longer term before it goes full circle and back to the state.
On the flip side I think how private schools have supported pupils through covid could teach state schools a lot. Yes people are paying for it and they had to demonstrate value but from what I know of friends with kids at private school they adjusted and dealt with a lot more efficiently compared to our experience and ultimately that's what matters.

SomeOtherGirl · 13/08/2020 23:26

@2kool4skool

YABU It’s also unfair that some kid shave one parent, Some have shit parents, Some read with them, some can’t be arsed Some stick them on front of the TV all day, Some feed their kids crap, others cook healthy meals, some parents work, some don’t and have more time for their kids. All of these things make a huge difference to a child’s life. School probably less so.
This.

Seeing the way some parents scream at their under fives to f-ing shut up as they're walking round tesco makes me so sad. How can teachers fight the poor examples being set to some kids?

My personal belief is that a good place to start would be a public education drive with a simple starting message. Don't swear at or in front of your kids.

It teaches such disrespect that bleeds up through their lives. The poor kids come into school and display the same disrespect for others and their teachers, they then get in trouble and it becomes a vicious cycle.

All the focus is on giving kids computers in the classroom. In my experience this is the easiest way to get them off task in lessons.

The homeless people around here have fancier phones than me. Doesn't make them any less homeless.

Human connection is what matters, and learning from a young age that it is normal to swear at others, or not want to get on and try hard, and disrespect the teacher or other kids is the foundation for difficulties later in life.

Just my opinion and experience.

DoubleTweenQueen · 13/08/2020 23:27

@toastmeahotcrossbun I am aware of that. I was one of those kids with lack of food, clothes, heating, stable family life. I agree that abolishing private schools would not touch any of that. Not sure why you didn’t like my comment - it was based on educational engagement alone. I have done voluntary work in the state sector with such children - letting them know they mattered, and that they did have a future. Education is their way forward and out.

SomeOtherGirl · 13/08/2020 23:29

As pp alluded to, I would add that the Labour systems are also skewed in favour of those at the top. I'm sure it's been said that loads of labour mps have either been to or have kids in private school. The bbc is pretty leftist. But look at the salaries of the people at the top. It's ok to take away from the aspirational middle, so long as we at the top are ok. 🤦‍♀️🤷‍♀️

VinylDetective · 13/08/2020 23:30

@kittenpeak

Also, and controversial here. If private schools don't exist (and lets ban private health care, 5* hotels, Rolex watches and 1st class plane tickets while we're at it) why would you aspire to be the absolute best in your career? If you couldn't achieve the absolute best, and everyone had the same, would you want to work as hard? Shall we ban Waitrose? Shall we ban international travel? I'm not comparing supermarkets to a child's education, but my point is that I think it's important there are choices available. If I can afford to send me children to a brilliant school with amazing opportunities, amazing school trips, then I Will.

And no, I can't afford private school!

Yes, let’s abolish private health care which wouldn’t exist without doctors’ greed in 1948. Education and healthcare should be the same for everyone. All the other things you mention are fripperies and make no significant impact on people’s lives.

Not all of us are motivated by money, being the absolute best in your career is pretty pointless if it’s predicated on buying fancy watches and privilege for your kids.

nicenames · 13/08/2020 23:31

I was the first in my family to go to uni and I went to Oxbridge. From a poor state comp. BUT, I have never been truly from a deprived background - sure, my parents were sometimes short of cash/ in negative equity but my dad was in a profession, just not one that required a degree when he did it and my mum did some secretarial work and stayed at home, so quite a middle class upbringing really, though my parents identify as sort of working class because both grew up on council estates and went to grammar school in the days when no one had tutors and it was just a quick test that no one really tutored for (that obviously benefited them immensely - I wouldn't claim that system as fair, but certainly fairer than grammar schooling is today). I probably did have some genetic inheritance from my parents, but mostly my privilege is that I had parents who hugely valued education, having been educated in a time and place where grammars often outperformed public schools (but the rich sent their kids to public school to network etc). Given my experience at the state comp, I know that I would have done well absolutely anywhere. Attainment is only part of the picture though.

My state comp had quite a deprived intake (run down coastal town)- it wasn't my parents' first choice, but they didn't play the game to get me into the outstanding church school and I was just outside the catchment for the other good school. Lots of kids from quite tricky backgrounds battling a lot of issues. Many who struggled with reading. Very low quotient of parents who made an effort to care about their kids' education and very low expectations on behaviour and attainment really. There were definitely bright kids - I wasn't the only one - but I was one of very few who persevered properly and didn't coast in the face of a culture that discouraged trying. So lots of smart kids didn't do as well as they could, to blend in, and I really stuck out like a sore thumb and was badly bullied. In my first year, I was identified with one other girl as being talented in maths and given the chance to do a gifted programme at the local university at the weekend - the other girl never bothered to go, despite us offering her a lift, because her parents didn't think it sounded like fun. Some teachers were great, others were rubbish and I taught myself 3 of my GCSEs from books.

I left after year 11 to go to the outstanding church school (which kicked out all those who didn't get 5 A*-C and a B in their chosen subject and brought in non believers with great results, so I got in to what was then effectively a grammar school!). The church school was amazing - the facilities were no better, but the cohort was so fab, lots of kids just like me, who wanted to do their best to get into the best university they could. And lots of teachers who really wanted to teach these bright, largely well behaved teenagers their subject. I had so much fun there.

I don't know what I will do for my kids. I can afford to pay for private schooling, but I kind of like the idea of my child going to the local state school that is close to our house. It is in an affluent area and performs well (though it probably doesn't outperform given the background of the kids who go there). Whatever happens, I would absolutely never let my child go to the type of secondary school I went to first. I would far rather pay, or home school. So, even if you ban private schooling, unless you operate some kind of lottery system where kids are distributed so that there is a decent mix of parental backgrounds and abilities and so teachers who want to teach bright kids who want to learn don't gravitate towards the affluent middle class schools, there will always be schools that people will want to pay to avoid. And schools that wealthy people pay to be close to.

RedtreesRedtrees · 13/08/2020 23:34

“ Not all of us are motivated by money, being the absolute best in your career is pretty pointless if it’s predicated on buying fancy watches and privilege for your kids.”

You might be right about watches, but not about buying privilege for our children. It’s what every parent does to the extent of their means.

DoubleTweenQueen · 13/08/2020 23:35

@VinylDetective What?

"The brightest and the best aren’t just the kids with the richest parents. I’d have thought that was blindingly obvious.”

I know that. I don’t believe I said otherwise.

SomeOtherGirl · 13/08/2020 23:35

Yes if I had a career and were top of it, top of my shopping list would be a house big enough for us, and with a garden. I definitely need money for that 😭

CountreeGurl · 13/08/2020 23:36

Yes absolutely, we will never achieve equality of opportunity as long as wealthy people can opt out. I would morally never choose private education and judge those that do

sst1234 · 13/08/2020 23:37

@nicenames

This is the same experience for many who went to not so nice schools with peers who only disrupted other peoples learning. Any rational parent would shield fiber children from disruptive, bullying kids. Those children are the product or bad parenting, no amount of schooling can change that, private or otherwise.

toastmeahotcrossbun · 13/08/2020 23:37

I didn't dislike your comment DoubleTweenQueen but worry that it's easy for people to think kids aren't engaged with school when really how can they possibly be if the basics aren't covered. I was one of those children too and have also worked with a kids charity so we obviously think along similar lines.

The point I was making was simply that we as a society are letting our kids down in a multitude of ways and it seems to me that people are often looking to schools to resolve all ills, with teachers having to effectively be social workers and nobody being able to change anything until child poverty in this country is addressed (as well as many other issues children have to cope with)

imissthesouth · 13/08/2020 23:37

absolutely not, public schools make a mockery of themselves tbh. I want my children in a better environment where there's more support for them. If i'd been to public school i'd of easily got in with the wrong crowd and never got through my exams (didn't help me later in life as once i went off to uni i struggled with a wild phase)

SomeOtherGirl · 13/08/2020 23:39

[quote sst1234]@nicenames

This is the same experience for many who went to not so nice schools with peers who only disrupted other peoples learning. Any rational parent would shield fiber children from disruptive, bullying kids. Those children are the product or bad parenting, no amount of schooling can change that, private or otherwise.[/quote]
In all the calling out 2020 has done, why is calling out bad parenting still the ultimate taboo?

Swelteringmeltering · 13/08/2020 23:41

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius

That was my experience too with older siblings. Dm was in thrall to uncle, socialist, who ended up sending his dc to private boarding schools.... And dm sent hers to the then new comps. Awful experience for siblings, totally let down.

With me, we moved and went to better school and she was very bitter about it all, and the failed experiment... And her db children going private!!

Swelteringmeltering · 13/08/2020 23:42

I really don't think we should sacrifice our own dc on the alter of our beliefs. We must do what's best for them.

girlicorne · 13/08/2020 23:42

I know you said you didn’t want this to be about individual’s OP but private school is not just for high earners. We aren’t high earners by any stretch, I work an extra 20 hours a week to pay DDs school fees. Our catchment state secondary is dire, moving was not an option, the good schools near us are catchment only so we had no chance. There are also several girls in her year receiving full or part bursaries. Private school is not just an option for families earning 100k plus a year or certainly not where we are, that’s a misconception.

When we were looking at how we could afford it people said to us to top up DDs state education with private tutors etc, if private schools were abolished some parents would choose this option instead again giving their children the unfair advantage that some people feel private education now gives.

Also, some parents will always be better equipped to top up their children’s education than others and that isn’t always because of finances, some parents are just more into educational trips etc than others and doing extra learning at home with their children, others don’t want to, don’t have time to, so I think there will always be inequalities and it’s not as simple as abolishing private education.

In an ideal world we would all have exceptional state schools to send our children to, but that is not the case.

kittenpeak · 13/08/2020 23:42

@VinylDetective I am not comparing watches to children's education, my point is, why would do you want pay rises? Why do you want the best for your children? Why do you go save money? Why do you want to do well In life? If you abolish private schools, what else do you want to ban? Are you saying parents shouldn't pay for their children to have ballet lessons? Football on a Saturday? Piano lessons? Swimming lessons? Sounds like you don't do any of these if you believe everything should be completely equal.

If a parent can afford to put their child in private education, then so be if. It means a place is then available for another child in the state system

fsklgf · 13/08/2020 23:43

I honestly think future generations will look back at private education and shudder. It is such a hangover from the victoriana times and I can't believe so many people on here are defending it!

Why not? Have you paid attention to public discourse at all in the last few years? Many people, including on mumsnet, have clearly not moved on much since the Victorian era.

Ploughingthrough · 13/08/2020 23:48

I find it bizarre how mumsnet picks on private schooling, when there are so many ways of buying privilege.
Organic/healthy food? Not fair to buy this because some people can only afford cheaper food.
Well made and long lasting clothes? Not fair as some people can only afford Asda clothes.
A nice, privately owned house with a garden? Not fair as some people can only afford to rent a council flat.
Tutoring/extra curricular activities? Not fair as some people can't afford this.
Private healthcare with no waitlists? Not fair as most can afford NHS only.

The whole of society is unfair, so the constant moan about private schools I find a bit bizarre. It is natural instinct for most to buy the best you can, whatever that is.

kittenpeak · 13/08/2020 23:50

@CountreeGurl

Yes absolutely, we will never achieve equality of opportunity as long as wealthy people can opt out. I would morally never choose private education and judge those that do
We all buy privilege in some way or another. Have you ever shopped in Waitrose? Have you ever been abroad? Do you pay for your kids to have swimming lessons? Have you ever had a cleaner? Private education is a whopper of an expense, but you pay for privilege at all levels and if you can afford it, why not. Hell going out for a cheap meal at pizza express is a privilege, people don't stop because it's unfair to others. If they work hard m, great and if it means giving your children what you think is best, good on them

(And not all private schools

Swipe left for the next trending thread