To think private schooling should be abolished

[year5teacher]

Just to preface, I’m not criticising individual parents. You have to do what you consider best for your child - for example if the choice was a private school with excellent dyslexia support and a state school that was notoriously bad, for example, you must make the correct judgement for your child.

Just to get that out the way so the thread isn’t flooded with “well I sent DC to private school because...”. I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about the system as a whole.

AIBU to believe it’s morally wrong for us as a society to allow children of higher earners to access a generally better level of education, which in turn can affect their trajectories for the rest of their lives?

[quote year5teacher]@sst1234 I’ve given you so many examples of why abolishing public schools will help structural inequality in the long term, and how that inequality feeds into the attitude that parents have to education and therefore the experience their children have of it. If you don’t agree with it, that’s completely up to you, but I have defended my point of view plenty.

So your attitude is basically “it won’t fix everything so we won’t bother”. Excellent.[/quote]
But you haven’t. Not a single one. All you have done is repeat the same statement about inequality over and over again. You haven’t stated a single quantitative argument backed by logic as to how abolishing private schools will help the most disadvantaged.

By all means keep repeating the same hollow sentence, as virtuous as it sounds, it has no substance to it whatsoever.

Right this has been really interesting, thanks to those posters who have given really interesting comments both for and against my point. I definitely think the argument is more nuanced than I initially did and it’s given me lots to think about. I still believe in my original point, I will never support private schools, but I think there’s more that needs to be considered about raising standards in state schools. There’s so much to be done to improve equality of opportunity.

I’m going to bed now so I probably won’t be replying to any more comments and I might not have time tomorrow.

[quote year5teacher]@sst1234 I’ve given you so many examples of why abolishing public schools will help structural inequality in the long term, and how that inequality feeds into the attitude that parents have to education and therefore the experience their children have of it. If you don’t agree with it, that’s completely up to you, but I have defended my point of view plenty.

So your attitude is basically “it won’t fix everything so we won’t bother”. Excellent.[/quote]
I honestly think future generations will look back at private education and shudder. It is such a hangover from the victoriana times and I can't believe so many people on here are defending it!

@year5teacher

Another soundbite. Nothing wrong with that, but yet again, the questions remains unanswered. At least we can agree on one thing, we all want great education for all children.

Poor quality schooling contributes to perpetuation of inequality. Lack of experience, aspiration and opportunity contribute to perpetuation of inequality. Not valuing education and seeing achievement as elitist contributes to perpetuation of inequality.

@sst1234 but abolishing private education isn't JUST to help the most disadvantaged, it is everyone in the middle too! And yes, learning alongside the upper and middle classes would pull them along, expose them to different circles, different networks, different vocabularies even. Just learning alongside people from other walks of life benefits everyone, surely, from both sides. There are so many bright children from less well off backgrounds who would massively benefit from mixing and learning with bright children who would otherwise be in private school. Surely you can see that?!

Would you stop high earners buying high end cars too, or holidays, or houses? Or is it just education you want to stop some paying privately for? You are being silly. People can spend their money on what they want.

SomeOtherGirl, agree wholeheartedly with your post. The money wasted here on dud computing schemes and hardware that gets broken.

[quote sevencontinents]@dwiz8 I think that is precisely what can happen, but in a more sub-conscious way. Our classiest society is deeply ingrained in us. A privately educated person from a top school is taught that they are born to rule, and they have the connections for top jobs. Someone from the local comp has neither. It is easy to see how sub-consciously, they may be dissuaded from applying. And that's without mentioning the subtle prejudices of employers...[/quote]
But it doesn't

My parents were poor, I lived in a seriously deprived area, but my parents spent time to build my confidence, help me with school work and it has paid off.

People in private school aren't taught they can rule the world: they are taught they can achieve and do what they like, which all children can. It's just some parents don't try and push that into their kids.

I also think you highly over estimate the benefit of 'connections' for the vast majority of privately educated children.

I said people from top schools are taught that they are born to rule. It is well documented that David Cameron and peers were indeed taught this. It is also well documented that students from top schools benefit from the connections they make. I am not making that up.

[quote sevencontinents]@sst1234 but abolishing private education isn't JUST to help the most disadvantaged, it is everyone in the middle too! And yes, learning alongside the upper and middle classes would pull them along, expose them to different circles, different networks, different vocabularies even. Just learning alongside people from other walks of life benefits everyone, surely, from both sides. There are so many bright children from less well off backgrounds who would massively benefit from mixing and learning with bright children who would otherwise be in private school. Surely you can see that?![/quote]
They still won't be in the same schools.

The poor children won't be living in the same school catchment as the ones who were blocked from going to Eton or Harrow.

If anything the selection by house price would become stronger as the former private school people will make damn sure they are living in the catchment of the best schools in the nicest areas whereas before they weren't bothered about being in catchment.

David Cameron and his peers went to school 30 years ago. Times have changed.

@sevencontinents

I said people from top schools are taught that they are born to rule. It is well documented that David Cameron and peers were indeed taught this. It is also well documented that students from top schools benefit from the connections they make. I am not making that up.

Some yes

All no

The benefits David Cameron etc. gained were from their parents and family. They would have been just as privileged if attending a state school

@DoubleTweenQueen

David Cameron and his peers went to school 30 years ago. Times have changed.

Not much. And not enough.

No matter how much you pay for education it does not always follow you will get better grades. Think royal family, I think Prince Edward famously got E grade at A level. He went to best schools and had tutors to help him. Kids from local comp outperformed him. You sound very jealous and bitter btw.

Rereading this thread, something occurred to me. As a child, I feel my education was decided by my parents’ ideological beliefs - they were both teachers, and dyed-in-the-wool socialists, and believed passionately in the state system.

When I was 10, we moved to a tiny village, where I did not fit in at all and had no friends. The primary school had about 28 pupils, and 26 of them had known each other pretty much from birth, and were, in many cases, related. Dsis and I stood out like sore thumbs, and I was bullied for my accent, and for my interest in books.

Things only got worse at secondary school. My year was the first year of comprehensive education in my area - prior to that, you did the 11+, and if you passed, you went to the grammar school in one neighbouring town, and if you didn’t pass, you went to the secondary modern in a town in the other direction. When I was 11, the secondary modern became a comprehensive. Some kids, from outside the comprehensive’s catchment, still sat the 11+. It was suggested to my parents that they should push for me to do the 11+, so I had the chance to get to the grammar school, but they refused, and I went to the comprehensive. It was 5 years of misery, loneliness and bullying, and left me with a lifelong history of low self esteem, depression and anxiety.

Finally, when I was 16, I went to the Sixth form college - the former grammar - my year had been the last I take there, and when they reached 16, it became the sixth form college. I found friends there - and people who didn’t mock or bully me for doing well at school - sadly it was too late for my mental health.

That wasn’t the only chance my parents gave away for me. I was a really good singer, and my singing teacher thought I should try for a music scholarship at a really musical private school (Cheethams, I think), but they decided they wanted me to stay in the state system. Of course, I might not have got in - but if I had, my life might have been very different.

I think my parents loved me, but I don’t think they put my needs ahead of their ideology, and that hurts.

I also think your parents sound amazing. You are lucky that they were able to build you up in that way despite difficult financial circumstances. Not all parents are able to do so. I say this as somebody who grew up in very similar circumstances to you. I can see how lucky u was that I had my parents.

Please read the thread
This has already been discussed. There are ways to avoid public schooling by stealth.

@sevencontinents

I also think your parents sound amazing. You are lucky that they were able to build you up in that way despite difficult financial circumstances. Not all parents are able to do so. I say this as somebody who grew up in very similar circumstances to you. I can see how lucky u was that I had my parents.

All parents are able to build their child's confidence. Unfortunately many in deprived areas don't tend to be the best parents in general, let alone make the effort to built their kids up.

The reality I see is there is no pulling up.

Our catchment had a bit of variety like many. The kids do just as their parents did on the whole.

Even within my family someone said to my kid "why do you know all this stuff?" It wasn't a compliment.

@VinylDetective How so? Companies and organisations have to be more productive and successful year on year. Globalisation has brought ruthless competition, They have to go with the brightest and best over anything else.

YABU.

State schools can still be very good, and sometimes better performing than private schools. They may lack facilities such as drama clubs and sports halls, but that's life.

Private schools are often selective, so being rich doesn't necessarily get your kid in. Also, most
private schools offer bursaries to children who otherwise wouldn't go, and also scholarships.

Parents of children who couldn't afford it could always try grammar schools.

If private schools didn't exist, the rich parents would just move to the expensive areas and take all the places for good schools. Should we ban expensive houses?

Also, and quite an important one I think, for every child in a private school, there is an extra place in the state system.

And much more effort into identifying and engaging the very young who have no engagement or aspiration.

That's all very well but what about the kids who have no food or no heating or new clothes or live with addicts or are young carers, etc.
We are letting our young people down badly and it goes way beyond school. These are the most pressing issues for me and abolishing private schools won't change the worst problems facing kids today.

@CommonCarder

The reality I see is there is no pulling up.

Our catchment had a bit of variety like many. The kids do just as their parents did on the whole.

Even within my family someone said to my kid "why do you know all this stuff?" It wasn't a compliment.

And this, my friends is why abolishing private schools won’t help.

Bouncycastle12
I think they should be abolished, and I went to a public school and will probably send my children to one - so I feel like a hypocrite. But it’s a truly shit system and horribly grotesquely unfair

You are a massive hypocrite. You disapprove of private education and want it abolished yet you send your children to private school.
Your children must be extremely confused that they are being made to go to a school which their mother loathes and disapproves of.