To think private schooling should be abolished

[year5teacher]

Just to preface, I’m not criticising individual parents. You have to do what you consider best for your child - for example if the choice was a private school with excellent dyslexia support and a state school that was notoriously bad, for example, you must make the correct judgement for your child.

Just to get that out the way so the thread isn’t flooded with “well I sent DC to private school because...”. I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about the system as a whole.

AIBU to believe it’s morally wrong for us as a society to allow children of higher earners to access a generally better level of education, which in turn can affect their trajectories for the rest of their lives?

@MarshaBradyo I know - luck of the draw to some extent. There is a year group several years old with whom I think he could have been very happy. We gave his younger sister the option to move too because we didn't want to be unfair, but she is having a blast and the school has much better, more integrated SEN provision for dyslexics, whereas in the private sector we would have to fork out £20 a week for a half an hour session on top of the fees.

several years older and (in the previous comment) particle physics. Typing is really not my thing.

YANBU. Of course not. The way the UK education system works is rotten. And seeing some of the responses to your post (I suppose you're not that surprised, really?) proves just how brainwashed people are. The UK has a fascinatingly intact class system. Inequality starts with education. It's through education you change society. Of course it's not right, on any level, to expose children to different opportunities from infancy and onwards. An elite runs this country and so it will remain. The rich refuse to pay more tax, which would benefit everybody's children - all they want is to pay for their own, just as they don't want to fund a public health system, but just jump the queue privately instead.

Interesting to see how many people defend private education on here, right after they (most likely) clapped for the NHS and threw some copper at Captain Moore. All these words of being in things together without understanding what feeds inequality.

It's a very backward and twisted society indeed who defends private education in 2020. The inequality of the UK will remain its downfall.

Good luck.

I thought that, but I’m not sure it’s true. Here in Edinburgh there are spaces for the first time in ‘better’ state schools because parents decided private gave a better service to kids during covid.

There will be variation between individual schools and regions, but I am talking about the sector as a whole. Even representatives of private school associations quoted in the several newspaper articles mentioned in the thread I posted haven't exactly been giving an optimistic picture recently (some articles free to read once registered)

Exclusive: Hundreds private schools 'bust by Christmas'
www.tes.com/news/exclusive-hundreds-private-schools-bust-christmas

When asked by Tes whether the estimate was accurate, Peter Woodroffe, of the Independent Schools Association, which represents 540 schools, said: "I think it's an exaggeration. From our experience, whenever a small school is facing closure, parents will usually step in to help." But he added: "I suspect we might see between 15 and 20 per cent closing, which is still a lot."

Exclusive: Fears 30% of private schools will go bust
www.tes.com/news/exclusive-fears-30-private-schools-will-go-bust

Private schools in UK struggling as coronavirus costs bite
www.theguardian.com/education/2020/apr/01/private-schools-in-uk-struggling-as-coronavirus-costs-bite

One in 10 private schools facing closure as Covid crunch hits fees: Schools are struggling to pay staff and operating costs while facing the prospect of students not returning next year
www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/one-10-private-schools-facing-closure-covid-crunch-hits-fees/

It was also recently revealed than more than 10% of private schools which were in the Teachers' Pension Scheme have left the scheme, a figure that has increased quite suddenly, and which I thought was a very significant figure. That means a tenth (and I think it'll only increase) of such schools were in a financial situation such that they had no choice but to make this decision - knowing it will potentially have a big impact on recruitment and retention of the best teachers. I know someone who teachers in such a school and a lot of staff are looking to move back to the state sector, or at least a private school still in the TPS. It would otherwise cost them thousands in the long term in terms of their pension.

Good post geneva.

Rhianna, totally agree, sort out state education first then worry about everything else.
Many parents would rather tutor and get their children through 11 + than pay for private.

The biggest social let down is happening in state schools right now. Fix that first.

@Genevieva shows how much I know, I was nodding sagely like “ah yes, partial physics” 😂

I think they should be abolished, and I went to a public school and will probably send my children to one - so I feel like a hypocrite. But it’s a truly shit system and horribly grotesquely unfair.

[quote year5teacher]@dwiz8 you do make good point there. Truly, I do think I’m idealistic about it and I can totally accept that it’s not going to happen for all kids. Sadly I think there’s a lot of truth in your most recent comment.[/quote]
All the issues preventing state schooled children from achieving will not be solved by abolishing private schools

Do I think private schools shouldn't be considered charities? Yes I think that's wrong and would gladly pay more for the education if fees went up

Do I think state schools should get more funding? Yes, and I vote based on that.

Banning private schools won't put more money into state schools. It won't make deprived parents make more of an effort with their kids, it won't make a child dealing drugs at 13 suddenly care about their future.

@Thebearsbunny not sure what this is in response to but come on, far too harsh, I don’t want that kind of comment to someone on my thread.

Yes of course YABU. It's a personal choice!

Genevieva

I know where you are coming from, our story is similar. Mine told me at 8 she was leaving school as it got in the way of her career, and in fairness her subject of music meant she knew more than the teacher when she was about 6 Not expecting teachers to be specialist music teachers we home educated until he was old enough to go where they wee specialist.
She is dyslexic amongst other SN and was assessed on arrival and had constant support throughout, inc an additional hour per week each for core subjects.
We aren't expecting brilliant results, but we wouldn't have from state schools either.
You find the best school to suit the child, whatever that may be.

@Bouncycastle12

I think they should be abolished, and I went to a public school and will probably send my children to one - so I feel like a hypocrite. But it’s a truly shit system and horribly grotesquely unfair.

Don’t feel bad, you couldn’t send your kids to a crap school to prove a point if the choice was that or a good private school.

While I also clearly disagree with the system the blame isn’t on individual parents, the blame is on a government who wants to perpetuate class inequality.

I’m not here to personally argue with you, if you aren’t going to engage in debate and you’re just going to have digs at me then just leave the thread

Ermm, I did debate with you, comments about Labour? Remember? You weren't interested and were pretty rude about that. Interesting that you're now interested in debate. But only the bits that you're interested in right? And no, I don't need to leave the thread because it's a public forum. Would be interested in a proper response to my comments about Labour earlier though, rather than trying to shut me down by refusing to read it and instead trying to accuse me of being a daily mail reader. Somehow though, I suspect responding to that doesn't fit in with your world view.

@moofolk

I do know someone who paid for one of her kids to go to private school due to problems he was having. Her view afterwards

'I paid to make my son a racist.'

This was of course not her intent

I dread to think what sort of private school your acquaintance sent her child to. Most private schools are more racially diverse than state and plenty of racists emerge from state schools. I imagine her child was influenced by some unpleasant individuals and you get those everywhere,

@year5teacher I have thought about this issue quite deeply over several decades and I actually disagree with you for a number of reasons even though I have worked closely with children from disadvantaged backgrounds during my career and very much want to see that disadvantage gap reduced. These are a few of the reasons in no particular order:

• I don't think private schools give as much of an advantage as people imagine. I have seen plenty that would surprise people in terms of bad teaching and bad management, children slipping through the net without being identified as needing support (with SEN, with mental health, with academic attainment). I have also seen shocking favouritism and got the sense that most kids are bums on seats while a small select group are really nurtured. I have seen a harsh attitude towards kids who have been at the same school for 12 years being told to go elsewhere for A Levels because their GCSEs are not good enough.

• I have seen amazing things in the state sector and I am pretty convinced that most of my private school parent friends are irrationally scared of the state sector. It is a big unknown because they were educated in the private sector themselves and they are busy bankrupting themselves to avoid a monster that doesn't exist.

• the implications od banning private education are pretty extreme. Where do you draw the line? Do you ban home schooling? This would harm many children with ASD. Do you ban private extracurricular lessons? This would decimate the livelihoods of numerous women and men all over the country teaching music, dance, drama and other subjects that give a child an edge over a less privileged child. We would end up with a much poorer society if we did this. Where do you draw the line on controlling spending? Why stop at educational activities? It is the route to totalitarianism.

I would like every child to feel that way and I try to make the children in my class feel that they can do anything blah blah, as every teacher does.

That's really nice OP and I think a fantastic quality in a teacher

But as private schools by their nature encourage kids to see themselves as better than others (if parents didn't think it was better they wouldn't pay)

A bit of a sweeping generalisation there!

I’m a partial product of private schooling, attended a boarding school for just three years where I completed my GCSEs and A Levels. I loved it, small classes, teachers who actually gave a shit, lots of sports and outdoor pursuits etc. Left the place with a sense of direction and a bit of focus as to what I wanted do with my life. My parents pulled me out of the local comp that had already massively let down my older sister and they did not want the same to happen to me and at considerable sacrifice sent me to boarding school. My father was a builder from Limerick and ran a small successful construction company, hardly 'old money' material.

What people frequently forget is that there are private schools and there are private schools.

Even within the independent sector there is rampant snobbery at play. Just because you want to public school does not mean you are a member of 'the club'. The vast majority of private schools are unheard of institutions that offer a well behaved teaching environment with small classes with some nice to have bolt ons in terms of extra curricular activities that your average comp does not offer (Duke of Endinburgh etc). I can say with some confidence that my old school 'tie' opened zero doors for me or gave me fast track preferential access to plum job roles. It did gave me decent grades though and a bit of ambition

Most of the parents of pupils at these schools are middle class professional types who don't have money to burn and have made sacrifices to see their kids get a good academic start. For the most part the kids are 'normal' for want of another expression.

Then you get the likes of Charterhouse, Eton College, Harrow, Rugby, Shrewsbury, Westminster and Winchester, now these are elite and pupils here are just as likely to lump the afore mentioned lesser independent school in with the comps as scum to be mocked. They cost well over £30 grand a year and thats before all the additional costs are thrown in. Yes the facilities and quality of teaching are excellent, but that is only part of what you are paying for, the real 'value' in these schools comes from the connections pupils form that serve them throughout life, the stupendous sense of entitlement that is instilled in the pupils from day one and generally membership of club that is not grounded in reality.

For what it is worth I think independent schools should lose their charitable status if they can't demonstrate that they are genuinely giving something back to the community in terms of offering multiple scholarships, opening up of facilities to the public or including local kids in the Duke of Edinburgh or outdoor pursuit activities.

The fact is though even if you banned public schools tomorrow the rich will find a way to educate their kids 'privately'. Do you really think the Earl of Chelsea and Lady Kensington are going to send Octavia and Batholomew to the local comp?

Genevieva Having used both I agree with a lot of what you write.

As someone who has lived in European countries that have excellent educational outcomes and where fee payment for schools is illegal (to ensure a more level playing field) I absolutely agree. It does not remove all societal inequalities (nor is that the aim) but certainly means the educational systems are invested in better than in the UK. I was appalled to discover when my DC started school that the school needed to fundraise for decent books and equipment - it's staggering that this is not already provided through central funding. Raise the standard in non fee paying schools and private schools won't be required by the majority of their students.
Interestingly the same countries that don't have fee paying schools also publish salaries as their are less hung up on the idea that you shouldn't talk about money (something initially perpetuated by those who know they are earning more than they should for what they do!).

@KarenFitzkaren

I’m not here to personally argue with you, if you aren’t going to engage in debate and you’re just going to have digs at me then just leave the thread

Ermm, I did debate with you, comments about Labour? Remember? You weren't interested and were pretty rude about that. Interesting that you're now interested in debate. But only the bits that you're interested in right? And no, I don't need to leave the thread because it's a public forum. Would be interested in a proper response to my comments about Labour earlier though, rather than trying to shut me down by refusing to read it and instead trying to accuse me of being a daily mail reader. Somehow though, I suspect responding to that doesn't fit in with your world view.

I replied to another poster saying that labour are pretty rubbish as a party now and that the reason I will continue to vote for them is because it’s the best vote against the tories. I have little faith in party politics as a whole, I supported corbyn because I felt he had socialist values I agreed with and believed he could enact change - he probably could have done, if half the party hadn’t sabotaged him. I understand that a lot of working class people didn’t like labour, and I’m not going to sit here and talk for them - but I do feel like there’s a certain amount of the tories saying “hey look, that foreigner is trying to take your money” while they sit in front of piles of wealth. There was a good cartoon which illustrated this.

I have engaged with plenty of people on this post, please just drop the nasty little comments. Your post calling me a dickhead has been deleted, your original comment was pretty unpleasant anyway ranting about “woke left warriors” and I think you know you didn’t exactly approach it with an attitude for an open debate, you wanted a reaction. Which you got - silly of me really.

“ The rich refuse to pay more tax, which would benefit everybody's children - all they want is to pay for their own, just as they don't want to fund a public health system, but just jump the queue privately instead.”

I’ll pay more tax to improve public services, but I won’t give up my right to buy private education/health care etc in addition.

Hahaha

What’s actually morally wrong is to have such awful state schools.

Improve them then private schools won’t be needed.

What an incredibly ignorant post...

@toastmeahotcrossbun

I would like every child to feel that way and I try to make the children in my class feel that they can do anything blah blah, as every teacher does.

That's really nice OP and I think a fantastic quality in a teacher

Thank you so much!

Totally agree. If state schools were supported by all members of society they would be infinitely better, reflecting our diverse society. Private schools create inequality.

I wouldn’t abolish private schools as it’s personal choice. What I would like to see done away with is the lack of social mobility elsewhere in society that disadvantages state school kids. There’s no will for that with all the private school types we have in government and their cronies through who have benefitted handsomely from this