To think private schooling should be abolished

[year5teacher]

Just to preface, I’m not criticising individual parents. You have to do what you consider best for your child - for example if the choice was a private school with excellent dyslexia support and a state school that was notoriously bad, for example, you must make the correct judgement for your child.

Just to get that out the way so the thread isn’t flooded with “well I sent DC to private school because...”. I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about the system as a whole.

AIBU to believe it’s morally wrong for us as a society to allow children of higher earners to access a generally better level of education, which in turn can affect their trajectories for the rest of their lives?

Alright, chill out. You’ve already called me a dickhead, not sure why you think continuing to be super patronising makes you look good. You’ve been far ruder than me than I was to you. Is that the wisdom of age?

Touched a nerve eh. Although obviously it's a matter of opinion who was ruder to who. And who cast the first stone. Not that I care that much. I'd hate to shut down freedom of speech, no matter what people wish to say.

I think people send kids to private schools for
-smaller classes
-more sport/ music/ extra curricular

• better SEN provision (in some cases)

Or maybe a lack of other students with SEN/behavioral issues. State schools need to improve. Some well do do family’s just want their children with other children who’s parents have similar lifestyles/attitudes. And honestly I don’t see why a 5yr old needs to know about life’s inequalities yet. I thought the numbers of private schools was rather insignificant 7% primary a bit more secondary and then sixth form a bit more again?

@year5teacher instead of complaining about private schools, how about advocating and working to make state schools a world class system, then private schools wouldn’t need to exist and no parent would want to spend at least 10k on private edu if it’s free and better than the one paid for.

Fix what’s broken( some state schools) , and don’t break something that is working(schools in private sector) because you think it’s unfair. If you are going to start with fair unfair argument, postcode lottery with state schools is NOT FAIR either, including many other things in life...

@RedtreesRedtrees

There is a huge territory that exists between where we are now and where ideally we could be, let alone some utopia where everyone is treated equally in the systems they encounter (school job opportunities,etc).

The problem is that from the insode it actually looks equal and good - the gulf is so large in our society that whole communities don't even count.

There is huge potential to do better - huge

The whole school system needs an overhaul. mine are in private school because I can’t afford a house close too a decent state primary school. Getting 2 kids through private school is cheaper than the added price of houses close to the decent schools.
Fix that first please...

@PotteringAlong

So how will the state system cope with all those extra children? Because there’s no extra money - the Parents of private school children already pay their taxes. So where are you putting them and how are you funding it?

Good point

The children in the lower sets will probably not achieve what the top sets do - but they can improve. My father was a secondary school maths teacher, and as Head of Department, he got to allocate which teachers took which classes, and he used to take the lowest sets himself. He loved the sense of achievement that came from seeing a child grasp a concept that had baffled them before. I think he had too much modesty to say it, but I think he felt he should teach the lowest sets because these pupils needed the best teaching.

I wonder if it would be better the other way. We are all taxed less from the start but then when you have a child you are charged extra tax out of your earnings for their state education. Perhaps it would make people think about personal responsibility and value the education system, in turn raising standards. As with many things in the UK, if it’s free people abuse it

That could work. Those still wanting to go private could claim that part of their taxes back.

Too many think children should cost them nothing yet expect them to have everything others have.

@ManxRhyme

What about extra curricular activities? Doing sport, music, martial arts to any significant level is expensive. Should they be banned as not all parents can afford them?

Good point again

“ Bookmark

Today 19:22 serenada

@RedtreesRedtrees

There is a huge territory that exists between where we are now and where ideally we could be, let alone some utopia where everyone is treated equally in the systems they encounter (school job opportunities,etc).

The problem is that from the insode it actually looks equal and good - the gulf is so large in our society that whole communities don't even count.

There is huge potential to do better - huge”

So no actual examples or concrete ideas then

@Fruitsaladjelly by 'normal' do you mean average? If you do then the average salary is approximately £30k so I doubt independent school fees would be viable for most families. We frequently see people on MN who are struggling to pay for their rent, food, bills etc. It's not just a case of tightening your belt in order to send your DC to private school.

But as private schools by their nature encourage kids to see themselves as better than others (if parents didn't think it was better they wouldn't pay)

These are two separate things:

If parents didn't think it was better they wouldn't pay - true

But as private schools by their nature encourage kids to see themselves as better than others - not true. Who do you think the teachers are at these schools?

@year5teacher

Sounds harsh but many lower set children are that way for a reason. Their lifestyle choices, parents choices and overall mental ability mean there isn't much worth in trying to push many of them.

It may be idealistic but I have to respectfully say I couldn’t disagree more. I think a lot of the time as teachers we’re fighting against a tide of stuff we can’t control, so you are right there. I don’t like the stereotyping you’ve made, however, and honestly I’d argue that those children aren’t necessarily LA but have issues that need to be worked through before they’re ready to learn.

Ask me in 20 years of teaching but I really do believe in pushing every child regardless of ability to attain the best they can. There would be no point me doing my job if I didn’t think that. I think it’s simplistic to say they don’t want to achieve, and anyway if that’s true it’s really my job to make then want to. And then help them do it!

There are limits to what a teacher and school can do

You can put hours and the best education behind a child but when they get home if their parents don't care, they most often won't care either.

I grew up in a very deprived area and most of the lower set children had very much a benefits parent lifestyle, their mothers had several kids, men in and out of their lives, drug problems, criminal issues. No amazing teacher or better funded schools would help them get out of the situation they were in. Many turned to crime at a young age, or the girls turned to 'hair and beauty' and that was their only aspiration.

@KarenFitzkaren

Alright, chill out. You’ve already called me a dickhead, not sure why you think continuing to be super patronising makes you look good. You’ve been far ruder than me than I was to you. Is that the wisdom of age?

Touched a nerve eh. Although obviously it's a matter of opinion who was ruder to who. And who cast the first stone. Not that I care that much. I'd hate to shut down freedom of speech, no matter what people wish to say.

Well, I’ve just seen your comment was deleted, so there we go.

I’m not here to personally argue with you, if you aren’t going to engage in debate and you’re just going to have digs at me then just leave the thread.

I don’t believe we all need to live in the same size house, but I do believe that the system we have where some children have excellent opportunities and some have awful ones based on their parents money is really wrong.

There's no reason why children in state schools can't do well. We all have excellent opportunities - for a start, school is not only available, it's compulsary. I think the difference is partly between parents who encourage and take an interest in their children's education and natural ability.

@dwiz8 you do make good point there. Truly, I do think I’m idealistic about it and I can totally accept that it’s not going to happen for all kids. Sadly I think there’s a lot of truth in your most recent comment.

Suitedandbooted - you are a truly awful person

I have been a student, a teacher and a parent in both the state and private sectors, including grammar and comprehensive schools and small regional day and major boarding public schools.

My view is that private schools provide a marginal benefit for a massive amount of money.

Any parent who forks out in the belief that they are going to get a different child at the end of it will be sorely mistaken. The teachers in state and private schools undertook the same training (in fact in many state schools teachers are required to have QTS which is not a requirement in the private sector). While the facilities might be smarter at the private school this is not always the case. Tony Blair spent a fortune on school infrastructure and many state schools are now better equipped than all but the most expensive private schools.

All schools are, to some extent, sausage machines. It doesn't matter how much individual teachers try to differentiate, they have 200 kids passing through their classroom door each week and they have a standard curriculum with a standard exam for which they are preparing these kids.

So why did I pay for private education? One of my children was deeply unhappy at our local school - a square peg in a round hole with no interest in football and a deep interest in partial physics. He was capable of indulging that interest himself but he had no one to talk about it with. Moving schools gave him the chance to have friends.

If you take away the charitable status all that will happen is the Fees will go up, only the mega wealthy will be able to afford them and all the kids on bursaries will be tossed out on their ear (about 40% at our local independent ) these are generally the kids of nurses/teachers/ modestly paid professionals. The bridge between rich and poor will be removed.

Cam2020
School isn't compulsory though. It's the parents responsibility to ensure their dc gain an education, not the state, the law clearly states this. But I do agree the difference is partly between parents who encourage and take an interest in their children's education and natural ability.

[quote Cam77]@TorkTorkBam
The “left” is far from blameless, but I believe it is the right which is obsessed with academies with little evidence to support. And it was Gove, a right winger, infamously obsessed with outdated teaching methods which were rubbished by headteachers and educational experts. Or are you one of those “anti experts” types so beloved by Trump?[/quote]
Eh? I was responding to people suggesting that the problem with state schools being political echo chambers is that they'll indoctrinate the children. I was suggesting that that problem with them tending to be political echo chambers is how that affects decision making: it is closed minded not open minded. Result: worse outcomes.

It doesn't matter what the ideology is, left / right / monster raving, what matters is that it is an echo chamber. Echo chambers tend to create an ineffective organisational culture. Ideology over outcomes.

Your post suggests you think left wing good, right wing bad. That type of thinking is what creates the worse outcomes.

Brains must be engaged rather than emotional tribal loyalties. Tribalism makes you disengage your brain. Fear of ostracism due to wrong think reigns.

I see it as a tribalistic impulse that drove you to accuse me of being a Trump supporter because I suggested that left wing echo chambers lead to poor organisational effectiveness.

As it happens I am not a Trump supporter at all.

Some people are though. Not every thought or belief in those people's heads is wrong. People like you writing them off as total baddies and thus closing your mind to their thoughts and concerns is why Trump is in power.

a square peg in a round hole with no interest in football and a deep interest in partial physics. He was capable of indulging that interest himself but he had no one to talk about it with. Moving schools gave him the chance to have friends.

That’s a shame, well not a shame as you’re probably happy, but we’ve found a little group of the above in state. Having used state and private I think peers count for a lot.

What I will say about private school is that I don’t think they necessarily all make kids think they’re better than others.

What I do think they instill in children, from discussing with friends who have been to private school, is a sense that the world is their oyster. That they can do anything, and they are smart and clever (because they got into private school...) and that they can go into any field they want to.

I mean, it is true in a way because going to private school can give you a real advantage in selection for certain jobs, and also because privately educated children generally come from families where there aren’t roadblocks to success such as poverty, real disadvantage, etc.

I would like every child to feel that way and I try to make the children in my class feel that they can do anything blah blah, as every teacher does.

I don’t think kids shouldn’t feel that way. I just think that it’s not right that this kind of attitude can be bought and sold because however much people want to argue, private schools and state schools are different and private schools open doors that even the best state school may not.

@Genevieva I’m really glad your DS found a school and a peer group that make him happy!