To think private schooling should be abolished

[year5teacher]

Just to preface, I’m not criticising individual parents. You have to do what you consider best for your child - for example if the choice was a private school with excellent dyslexia support and a state school that was notoriously bad, for example, you must make the correct judgement for your child.

Just to get that out the way so the thread isn’t flooded with “well I sent DC to private school because...”. I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about the system as a whole.

AIBU to believe it’s morally wrong for us as a society to allow children of higher earners to access a generally better level of education, which in turn can affect their trajectories for the rest of their lives?

It’s a reality which is not capable of change

That's debatable, but it's not what I said or what you denied, anyway.

I actually agree because it is one of the most influential factors behind the very large differences between the wealthy and poor in the UK.

In countries with more equality, there are very few private schools.

Having fee paying schools is extremely divisive for a society.

State schools need to fine tune their education though. Adapt far more to cater for differing abilities, needs etc rather than simply throwing everyone in together. Schools that truly challenge highly intelligent children, schools that offer sports like private schools do, schools that specialise in supporting children with various disabilities etc.

Buying the best education doesn’t automatically create a top achieving hard working aspirational child. If it did no top rank private school would ever kick kids out, sorry, tell the parents “not the right environment”, “would be better suited somewhere else”. Wealth is not integrally linked with ability or a respect and desire for education. Achievement and aspiration comes from more than the school and ability, it’s what’s around the child when they aren’t in school. How can aspiration be achieved when all people know for generations is grinding poverty?

I haven't voted because I do agree that in an equal society all children should have the same opportunities available to them and fundamentally it isn't fair that because you happen to be born to a family in poverty, you won't have the same opportunities as someone from a very comfortable middle class family.
I do struggle massively though with the concept of removing the right for people to choose private education. People don't pay the money for no reason - the parents genuinely feel the education their child will receive is better and no matter how strongly anyone feels about the subject, I would struggle to ever see why if you can afford it, you wouldn't want to provide that for your child. Another family I know can afford private education (just, I would guess, they're very much what I would consider 'comfortable middle') but are both very socialist and so didn't want to engage in that process. So instead they moved house to a nicer area with a state school with a really good reputation. I don't understand how that isn't the same principle.
People who pay private school fees also pay tax, and by default probably more tax than the average earner owing to their presumably higher wages, so they aren't taking anything away from the state system either.
I also think people tend to forget that most private schools do offer fairly good numbers of burseries and scholarships and so they are actually available to some poorer background students - but I think many parents are a bit too intimidated to apply or even consider that as an option. Of course this isn't availible to all so doesn't solve the problem either, just think it's worth mentionning that not all private school kids come from mega rich families.
I do agree it all feels very unfair but I just think until the standard of state schools is raised to the same level as private there is really no point in trying to ban them. In essence it is effectively saying, we know we can't tempt you away so we're just going to take away the choice and not let you have the nice thing either. It's such a crap way to deal with the real problem. Shovelling private school kids into the state system simply won't make the state system better.

The “life isn’t fair” argument is so bizarre to me, because why would you settle for that?
Why are you happy to settle for that, when that unfairness means kids going to food banks and other kids being given the absolute best education and opportunities?

This is something I’ll never understand.. when you say “well, life isn’t fair” to a topic like this, you’re basically saying that’s ok.

MN is astoundingly right-wing on private schools, when left-wing on nearly everything else

[quote dwiz8]@Therewillbetroubleahead Eaton is £14k per half term...[/quote]
No per ‘half’, that seems to be their term for a term.

*Sorry, I’m sure you made a very good point, but I switched off after “woke middle class justice warriors”.

How rude. People have been listening to and responding to your opinions even if they don't agree with them. Why did you switch off? It was a pretty good description by KarenFitzkaren. One of the reasons Labour didn't get in is because the woeking classes know full well that Labour is no longer the party that has their interests at heart. They voted accordingly.

The current Labour party would not fix the country and they would not fix the education system, whether they abolished private schools or not. No political party is likely to solve the problems in the education system, because they don't listen to the people who work in it.

@heymacaroner you make very valid points. This thread has been really interesting to me. There’s been a lot of the “it’s MY money!!” “You just have to work hard in life” and “get over it, life isn’t fair” brigade, but there’s also been comments like yours which make me pause for thought and give a different perspective - a broader one than I offer in my OP.

@year5teacher Aw, that's so lovely, thank you!

@ZooKeeper19

Most faith schools were set up as Christian charitable foundations to educate local children who otherwise would have had no access whatsoever to education.

They were set up and funded by benefactors (not taxes!), and only after WW2 were taken over and run by local councils.

Had they ‘not been allowed’, generations of children would have been denied any basic schooling.

Sorry, I’m sure you made a very good point, but I switched off after “woke middle class justice warriors”.

I'm sure you did dear. That was the mistake Labour made too. Probably because you're one of the woke middle class justice warriors. Look forward to a tory government for the rest of your life then. You can moan about it on here when things aren't going to your liking .

“ fsklgf

It’s a reality which is not capable of change

That's debatable, but it's not what I said or what you denied, anyway.”

In direct reply, yes it’s right.

Private parent:
It wouldn't matter if private schools existed or not - the money would get spent on those additional extras anyway, and those "extra opportunities" would be bought in after school clubs and settings. In fact many things can be done to achieve the same effect using state school now - it just needs input from parents.

@lazylinguist

*Sorry, I’m sure you made a very good point, but I switched off after “woke middle class justice warriors”.

How rude. People have been listening to and responding to your opinions even if they don't agree with them. Why did you switch off? It was a pretty good description by KarenFitzkaren. One of the reasons Labour didn't get in is because the woeking classes know full well that Labour is no longer the party that has their interests at heart. They voted accordingly.

The current Labour party would not fix the country and they would not fix the education system, whether they abolished private schools or not. No political party is likely to solve the problems in the education system, because they don't listen to the people who work in it.

Because to me, when people use the terms “work justice warrior” in earnest it usually means they are going to say a lot of stuff I’ve heard before. Those are daily mail terms, and terms of the right wing press in general, and they’re kind of inflammatory - let’s be honest.

Ultimately I don’t really rate labour anyway now. I don’t think they are, at their heart, a party with real socialist values and I am absolutely disgusted by the way the party conspired against Corbyn. I don’t like politicians. I feel hardly any of them have any real care towards the public. The only reason I would vote labour now is because they’re the only viable vote against the tories - and even now that’s looking unlikely to ever make a difference.

Thanks @lazylinguist. The op demonstrates the point nicely with her attitude.

@KarenFitzkaren

Sorry, I’m sure you made a very good point, but I switched off after “woke middle class justice warriors”.

I'm sure you did dear. That was the mistake Labour made too. Probably because you're one of the woke middle class justice warriors. Look forward to a tory government for the rest of your life then. You can moan about it on here when things aren't going to your liking .

Trust me, I know I’m getting a Tory government for the rest of my life. You don’t have to tell me that.

Expecting state schools to compete with private schools is the stuff of dreams. However, what we need in England, and what is achievable is for the PARENTS of working class and middle class children to compete with PARENTS of wealthier children in their expectations and belief and focus on their children’s abilities. It is utterly achievable and happens in many countries. I used to teach a boy in China who is very poor and whose school holidays consist of getting up at 4am to sell grapes for six hours. His parents spent about 10% of their income on English lessons. We actually tried to give him a discount but his parent wouldn’t have it. Anyway, he just took his university entrance exams (yes they went ahead as normal in China, which managed to get 10 million safely taking exams when the UK couldn’t get 250,000 sorted!?) and came in the top 2% of students in his province and is going to a great university. Such stories are far more common in China than in the UK as wealth struggles to trump effort and belief.

@year5teacher

One of the reasons people send their kids to private schools is because of far left teachers like yourself indoctrinating their children.

Thanks for giving me a laugh the kids I teach never have a clue about my politics because it would be completely inappropriate for me to discuss it with them.

Glad you found my comment amusing. There was a good article called the secret teacher in the guardian that talks about schools being a left wing echo chamber.

I don't mind inequality if the floor level is high enough.

So, if NMW is high enough to be a living wage then I don't care if lots of people earn more than NMW.

If NHS cancer care is good enough, I don't care if some people buy BUPA for extras on the cancer care.

If state schools are good enough , I don't care if private schools are better.

I do not believe that closing down private schools would lead to state schools getting better due to politicians and rich people being forced to use them.

I think that most people want schools to be good for everyone. I don't hear many private school parents saying they want their tax back because they are saving the state money by going private. The fact they have sent their children private means they recognise the deficiencies in the state sector. It does not mean they want the deficiencies to remain.

The issues in state schools are largely from lack of money. Let's say we convince all those private school parents to start lobbying the government hard to increase state school funding. Their goal being to bring state schools up to the standard of a good independent school through funding. Do you really think people are willing to pay the amount of tax that would take? I don't think the public will vote for that level of tax increase. It won't come from windfall taxes on Amazon, it will come from everyone. I do not think people are willing. Nor would they vote to divert money from NHS, pensions or policing.

Moaning about private schools is a diversion from the real issues which has the effect of reducing the impact of your other arguments on the real issues in state schools because you've been tainted by sounding like you are primarily driven by politics of envy.

ZooKeeper some of my ancestors on one side would have been illiterate beggers if it hadn't been for faith schools. Instead they, men and women, became teachers and small business owners in the nineteenth century.

Hingeandbracket Prince Andrew didn't go to Cambridge!

But the people who want that would just send their dc abroad for it, just as the very wealthy from other countries send their dc to boarding school here. You can’t get rid of uber privilege so long as you have national boundaries.

The parents who scrimp and save to send their dc to private school because the state schools are crap wouldn’t, though. And that would make much more of a difference to what you are saying than maintaining the current state system and abolishing private schools here.

Fwiw, I don’t believe in schooling at all. My dc have never been to school and never will.

But I will defend parents’ right to choose the education they want for their dc, even if I think it’s god awful.

And, being married to someone who went to a boarding school which could well be the one you described (only I’m sure the fees are more than that) I can tell you that if I had to choose a school it’s not what I would choose for my dc.

There are many measures of success, and all the money and professional status doesn’t compensate for the level of emotional damage I have seen in some of these men.

George Monbiot, who went to a prep boarding school, has likened it to child abuse. I wouldn’t go so far, but it’s also no bed of roses.

@KarenFitzkaren

Because to me, when people use the terms “work justice warrior” in earnest it usually means they are going to say a lot of stuff I’ve heard before. Those are daily mail terms, and terms of the right wing press in general, and they’re kind of inflammatory - let’s be honest

Op. In the nicest possible way, you are such a dickhead.

Oh god. I’m sure you didn’t mean it to but that really made me snort with laughter!

This is the problem with lefties. Ban everything, because of course there is no other way to improve things as that takes too much effort and why make any effort for anything, right? Not when others will you do it for you, i.e other people’s money analogy.
OP keeps coming back protesting saying but I didn’t say ban private schools, I said improve educations for all. No shit, OP, people are queuing around the block to argue that we shouldn’t improve education for all (not). Of course everyone thinks we should, the original post was goady and negative - reducing to lowest common denominator. If Private schools were such a bad idea, they wouldn’t be so popular with champagne socialists such as half the labour front bench and momentum types.