To think private schooling should be abolished

[year5teacher]

Just to preface, I’m not criticising individual parents. You have to do what you consider best for your child - for example if the choice was a private school with excellent dyslexia support and a state school that was notoriously bad, for example, you must make the correct judgement for your child.

Just to get that out the way so the thread isn’t flooded with “well I sent DC to private school because...”. I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about the system as a whole.

AIBU to believe it’s morally wrong for us as a society to allow children of higher earners to access a generally better level of education, which in turn can affect their trajectories for the rest of their lives?

As in Western Europe, Scandinavia etc.

Whether you keep or ban them is a red herring. People will always game the system. You can ban them, but then you already see schools in leafy middle class areas performing better than inner city schools with high social deprivation markers.

The people who were private will just shift into the catchment for the good school, price out poorer families and nothing changes, but the private families have more money in their pocket.

I love how defensive people get on this topic.

If you pay for your kids to go to private school you know you are buying something better than most people can afford or you wouldn't do it.

One thing I love about conservatives is their absolute cognitive dissonance. 'People shouldn't get something for nothing.' When talking about benefits.

But our own kids can get an easier life bought for them, and inheritance. It's fine to get something for nothing if you're related, amirite?

Private schooling is immoral. It perpetuates inequality and everybody knows it or they wouldn't do it: or be so defensive about their choices.

The trouble is work does not actually pay in Britain. In fact the more work you do the lower the status in general. I agree with the op who said that schools alone cannot abolish structural inequality in Britain - education also means nothing. Which means that more and more of us are going to reject this setup.

Newsflash.

Life isn't fair.

@year5teacher

Are you proposing a system that bans tutors? What about specialist music tuition....sports clubs?All the other advantages people with more money can afford?

The thread is ten pages long so I guess I can’t expect people to read the whole thing but it’s annoying having to keep on saying the same thing.

The goal would never be to stop any child having access to that.
The goal would be to make it so it’s not just some children with access to it.

Abolish private schools, remove their charitable status, redistribute the wealth to state schools. It’s a start. People have put forward really interesting points which challenge/further mine, and I think ultimately for me it remains a moral issue that education is not something that should be bought.

The issue with state schools are the state school Children on the whole

Sounds awful but true. Before moving our eldest into an Independant school most of her classmates couldn't care less. They disrupted class, their parents were just the same too. If your utopia ever became reality I'd rather move country or send both to overseas schools than out them back into the state system. More money in state schools won't fix the kids who have already given up and the parents with 2 GCSEs between them

In regards to a disproportionate amount of students doing on to careers such as pilot, armed forces officer etc, undoubtedly the school they attend makes a difference- not even because private schools are neccessarily academically 'better', but because they offer more of an all round education beyond the classroom. Better access to sports, work experience through contacts, there is also more of an ethos of you can achieve whatever you want; and those who can afford to send their children there are more likely to hold jobs as the above, and can help guide them. For example, anyone can join the armed forces as an officer with actually fairly reasonable qualifications, but absolutely undoubtedly if you have wanted to since small as you have seen a parent do so, you have likely been doing things which will make you a better candidate as par for the course and stand you in better stead for selection, as appose to someone who may have wanted to since they were small, but not really having a clue about the skills they seek in selection aside from what's online. They don't do them here and we did not have them, but career days annually which all year groups could attend would make a small dent in helping those who have no clue of the requirements for a variety of jobs to learn more whilst they have time to try and build up to it. Not sure if that makes sense, but I know what I mean haha- mix of school and also parents who know and have experienced how to exceed in those high paying jobs.

@SomeOtherGirl

I've worked in both and the teachers are the same. There isn't a special private school pgce. The biggest difference is the attitude of the kids and parents. I asked a kid in a state school once why he didn't want to listen and show respect in my class. He said he didn't need to get good grades as he planned to go on benefits. He was only 11 ! Plenty of naughty kids in private but fewer and not as disruptive to the education of the whole class IME. It seemed people wanted to send their kids to our school to put them amongst other kids who wanted to learn, and away from those who didn't.

On the other hand I know two people who went to well-known public schools who were bullied mercilessly and neither school took it seriously - of course nothing to do with the fact that bullies were part of the hereditary peerage whereas the victims were scraping to try and give their kid a chance.

@shinyredbus

So we shouldn’t have: private health, private dentists, private laser eye surgery etc? Private pensions?

If you shut all the private schools - how in gods holy name are we going to make the best decisions for our children? You’ve shit the schools down! 🤦🏻‍♀️ Are you anti -choice?

Yep, private education does shit the other schools down.

Just like the wealthy shit on the poor daily.

Well spotted.

Justforthis83
Nice lazy dismissal to go with all the others who think a difference of opinion equals 'you're obviously jealous so nerrrrr'.

For social mobility you'd be better off making university free. I believe that was the number 1 predictor of social mobility

The cost of Tuition fees has no impact on
whether someone goes to university or not.

The main issues are living costs ( even when university was 'free' people still had to pay for accommodation etc) , attainment and the type of university people attend. First generation students and students from lower socioeconomic groups are 2/3 less likely to attend an elite university - even when the achieve the required grades. The last point has the biggest impact on social mobility.

Prince Harry didn't do very well at Eton.

In fact, he made a fair old mess of it.

You can take the horse to water, but you can't make him think.

More money in state schools won't fix the kids who have already given up and the parents with 2 GCSEs between them

Yeah and presumably those parents didn’t go to private school or they probably wouldn’t have got 2 GCSEs between them.
Can you not see that the cycle of poor education, poor aspirations and poor outcomes isn’t generally a concern of rich people and their children? And do you not wonder why that is?

As with many services we all collectively contribute to provide a basic level of provision for everyone. Thus we all pay tax according to our means to provide schooling, healthcare, police etc. But those with the means are then entitled to spend a further portion of their income making separate arrangements if they choose. For example my dc attend private school, benefit from private healthcare and our home has private security. You could argue that all of these afford my dc an advantage and upset the mythical level playing field. I’m happy to contribute towards the general provision (and the government is free to increase taxation if they choose) , but I do not accept that it’s the right of the government to stop me making alternative arrangements for my family.

@oakleaffy

Prince Harry didn't do very well at Eton.

In fact, he made a fair old mess of it.

You can take the horse to water, but you can't make him think.

Don’t get me started on the royal family 😂

@Choochoose

In regards to a disproportionate amount of students doing on to careers such as pilot, armed forces officer etc, undoubtedly the school they attend makes a difference- not even because private schools are neccessarily academically 'better', but because they offer more of an all round education beyond the classroom. Better access to sports, work experience through contacts, there is also more of an ethos of you can achieve whatever you want; and those who can afford to send their children there are more likely to hold jobs as the above, and can help guide them. For example, anyone can join the armed forces as an officer with actually fairly reasonable qualifications, but absolutely undoubtedly if you have wanted to since small as you have seen a parent do so, you have likely been doing things which will make you a better candidate as par for the course and stand you in better stead for selection, as appose to someone who may have wanted to since they were small, but not really having a clue about the skills they seek in selection aside from what's online. They don't do them here and we did not have them, but career days annually which all year groups could attend would make a small dent in helping those who have no clue of the requirements for a variety of jobs to learn more whilst they have time to try and build up to it. Not sure if that makes sense, but I know what I mean haha- mix of school and also parents who know and have experienced how to exceed in those high paying jobs.

It's not just that - senior government politicians regularly visit Eton and Harrow etc and talk to the pupils - they don't bother with the schools the rest of us use.

You absolutely get bullies in state schools too. I suffered seven years of hell.

@oakleaffy

Prince Harry didn't do very well at Eton.

In fact, he made a fair old mess of it.

You can take the horse to water, but you can't make him think.

Ha at this and liked the image below

@Pepperwort

Might be something to do with the structural inequality of the UK that sees key workers working all hours and paid less than 20k, teachers paid 30-35k, and those few well off people in high status jobs able to take 3 full-time jobs each paying 500k yet still spend most of their day at the golf course, basedrops

Exactly. Schools can’t fix that.

@Gobbycop

Newsflash.

Life isn't fair.

Weird that you’re ok with that 🤔

It's not just that - senior government politicians regularly visit Eton and Harrow etc and talk to the pupils - they don't bother with the schools the rest of us use.

Yep, I think they shouldn't be able to attend any schools to be honest above a certain level as they cannot offer to all. We did have the local MP for a talk when I was at school, but in honesty none of us really knew who they were so it probably didn't have the impact that they hoped for...

@moofolk

I love how defensive people get on this topic.

If you pay for your kids to go to private school you know you are buying something better than most people can afford or you wouldn't do it.

One thing I love about conservatives is their absolute cognitive dissonance. 'People shouldn't get something for nothing.' When talking about benefits.

But our own kids can get an easier life bought for them, and inheritance. It's fine to get something for nothing if you're related, amirite?

Private schooling is immoral. It perpetuates inequality and everybody knows it or they wouldn't do it: or be so defensive about their choices.

Completely agree. It seems to touch a nerve which is fair enough and why I wanted to make sure people knew I’m not getting at individual people. People get nowhere by blaming each other for the fault of the government.

To be honest, I don't think the problem lies with schooling at all.

The teachers can only work with what they get from the parents. I went to a decent primary school and a secondary school that was in special measures the entire time I was there. It didn't matter to me, or the kids who went on to Oxbridge (more than went from the private school up the road). We had educated parents, and a rich cultural capital at home that meant that adequate schooling was all we needed to thrive educationally.

The kids who achieved the least/dropped out etc didn't do so because the schooling was enough. Unstable households, parents unable to help due to long working hours and low incomes etc.

I'd say a financial investment in families on low incomes to subsidise their extra curricular lives would make more of a difference. I work with a truly excellent school that really supports parents in providing support for their children's education. The teachers have so much less to catch the children up on because the parents are doing it within their means.

''You’ve shit the schools down! 🤦🏻‍♀️ Are you anti -choice?''

Freudian slip 😂