To think private schooling should be abolished

[year5teacher]

Just to preface, I’m not criticising individual parents. You have to do what you consider best for your child - for example if the choice was a private school with excellent dyslexia support and a state school that was notoriously bad, for example, you must make the correct judgement for your child.

Just to get that out the way so the thread isn’t flooded with “well I sent DC to private school because...”. I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about the system as a whole.

AIBU to believe it’s morally wrong for us as a society to allow children of higher earners to access a generally better level of education, which in turn can affect their trajectories for the rest of their lives?

@Purpleice

I don’t tutor for grammar schools myself, but my nephew was tutored. He is currently doing a PhD. The tutoring was about learning how to do the specific test for his school. This isn’t fair on those who do not get the tutoring, but that’s not to say that all children who get it will struggle there.

Not all children that have been highly tutored will struggle when they get there, but..... many will.

They aren’t meant for the average ability child that’s been tutored within an inch of their life. They are meant for the higher ability children that don’t need any tutoring to pass the test.

Because so many do have tutors, it becomes difficult to tell who is average naturally but the tutors pull them up to higher ability level or they are genuinely higher ability...

An average child probably would be ok at a grammar school but they would be able to keep up at the speed of the naturally higher ability ones.

That’s where the unfairness lies. Average child gets the place. Higher ability doesn’t....

[quote underneaththeash]@year5teacher I did and you still haven't told me why I can't spend our money on the type of education I choose.

Redistribution of wealth, I assume was one of Corbyn's classics and that's been tried many times in several countries in Eastern Europe..[/quote]
You can spend your money how you want, as I said, I’m not here to berate individual people on their choices when the blame for upholding systems of inequality lies with the government.

It just makes me wonder when people’s indignant response is “well it’s MY money and I can do what I like with it!” Typical “I’m alright jack” mentality.

YABU. I don’t use private schools but if parents want to pay then it’s up to them. Just like there’s an option to pay for private health care etc. Everyone gets the basic and those that want more should have the option to pay should they choose.

If everyone has access to the same thing and no “extras” then there’s less incentive to aim high.

@Proudboomer

Keep private schools but ban grammar schools would be my choice.

Really?

So the rich, whatever their intelligence, can access a top quality education, but not the brightest of the poor?

Yeah, that really levels the playing field. Not.

YANBU. People should need a v good reason not to send children to local school. If all MPs sent their kids to state school it would focus their minds on improving them. I'd also ban faith schools and grammar schools.

@SomeOtherGirl

I've worked in both and the teachers are the same. There isn't a special private school pgce. The biggest difference is the attitude of the kids and parents. I asked a kid in a state school once why he didn't want to listen and show respect in my class. He said he didn't need to get good grades as he planned to go on benefits. He was only 11 ! Plenty of naughty kids in private but fewer and not as disruptive to the education of the whole class IME. It seemed people wanted to send their kids to our school to put them amongst other kids who wanted to learn, and away from those who didn't.

So what causes an 11 year old to think that? How do we change that?

You need to accept that people with more money will spend that money to make their family life better. It's human nature. You would have to go to full communism to avoid this and to date, no communist system has worked because the people at the top just become oligarchs and milk the system. If there were no private schools, people with more money would pay for specialist tutors. Are you proposing a system that bans tutors? What about specialist music tuition....sports clubs?All the other advantages people with more money can afford? So YABVVVU to think there should be a system to stop richer people spending money on themselves.

Their "wealth" is the fees. They're not sitting on cellars full of gold.

@Pepperwort

It would be quite interesting to know the ages of those replying, because you can’t really take this out of context of wider society imo.

Specifically, are the millennials going to be all that keen on private schools I wonder, after having to pay tuition fees for uni to get good vocational jobs that pay much less than 6-figure salaries, be faced with ludicrous house prices, no pensions, etc etc. I can’t think that private schools have much of a future really.

I’d be interested in that too. I’m 25. Which I imagine some people would use as ammo to say I’m inexperienced.

Pressed the wrong choice. I think private schools and faith schools should both be abolished. Schools should teach about a variety of faiths and cultures. Parents can always opt for extra tutoring but private schools just do not seem right. All children should have equal access to good and level education.

Op do you also think everyone should be forced to buy Asda own brand, ban Waitrose as it's not fair richer families can enjoy nicer foods

Do you also want to ban designer shops as it's not fair some people wear nicer things

Expensive holidays

Make everyone go to pontins and ban Centre parcs

How far do you want to take this people shouldn't be able to spend money to have nicer things mentality?

@BaseDrops

If you put every child in a high achieving school with great teachers and facilities it will still not create a level playing field. One child goes home to a chaotic home environment where education isn’t valued and another goes home to a warm house, with healthy food and a space to do their homework, which is monitored. One is barely fed in the holidays and is bored rigid, making their own entertainment and one is having their horizons broadened.

Schools are not capable of being a panacea for structural inequity.

Sums it all up perfectly. I'm a head of faculty in a disadvantaged inner city state school. Mid 30s, from a disavantaged inner city state school myself. I did well because my Mum did everything she could to support me and having a stable home environment.

I can hand on heart say the teachers I teach side by side with are the best teachers I've ever worked with and would go as far as saying the teaching in state schools, particularly disadvantaged schools is far better than private schools and schools in affluent areas, where attitudes can often be more flippant as they know kids will do the extra at home, have tutors etc. I have seen it, and I have taught in schools like that and is why I left. But our results will never match these schools no matter how incredible the teaching is because we're trying to overcome such a barrier in their home situations and it can be such an achievement for these kids to just get to school clean and in uniform in a morning. Until we can do something at the root causes to eliminate poverty a discussion on education gaps is rather fruitless.

@Pepperwort I am a millennial and both mine go to Independant schools

Being younger has no bearing on most people's opinions on education from my experience

Well he said his dad was on benefits and he planned to do the same. It's a question of giving them aspirations, dreams of being doctors, or plummers (which is of course a really well paid job) or something else that suits them. But we can't really encourage aspiration if we live in a communist state and abolish the ability to work hard and be rewarded. It becomes a race to the bottom otherwise, surely.

I used to think that very strongly but now I'm not so sure. Having lived in countries which do not have the same levels of inequality, I can see how harmful it is here - but it is institutionalised and very hard to dismantle. Having said that, I don't believe private schools should have charitable status as I certainly don't see how they provide a "public benefit".

Faith schools are slightly different as in many rural areas they are the only option. The alternative would be transporting dozens of children, mostly primary age, into the nearest town every day.

I would rather see state schools properly funded and teachers paid enough to make it a respected profession (as it is in many other parts of the world). I do subscribe to the notion that a bright and motivated child will succeed wherever - but unfortunately I think that argument has broken down this year.

Are you proposing a system that bans tutors? What about specialist music tuition....sports clubs?All the other advantages people with more money can afford?

The thread is ten pages long so I guess I can’t expect people to read the whole thing but it’s annoying having to keep on saying the same thing.

The goal would never be to stop any child having access to that.
The goal would be to make it so it’s not just some children with access to it.

Abolish private schools, remove their charitable status, redistribute the wealth to state schools. It’s a start. People have put forward really interesting points which challenge/further mine, and I think ultimately for me it remains a moral issue that education is not something that should be bought.

Might be something to do with the structural inequality of the UK that sees key workers working all hours and paid less than 20k, teachers paid 30-35k, and those few well off people in high status jobs able to take 3 full-time jobs each paying 500k yet still spend most of their day at the golf course, basedrops

Agree with you OP.

@Yeahnahmum

Righto. Like if you had all the money in the world you'd send your kid to a public school then? No.

Nothing' morally wrong 'about wanting the best for your kid ,education wise. We all want whats best for our kids.

Paul and Linda Mccartney (not exactly short of cash) sent their kids to their local comprehensive school. Whether you think paying extra is automatically better depends on your outlook and whether you want them to be at the heart of government, the law or quangos.

it is quite ridiculous to suggest that all people should have state funded health/education etc that is the absolute pinnacle of what is humanly possible. Whatever the state provides, no matter how good, there will always be BETTER. State funded technology? Rich people could buy better....State funded heart surgery? Private could afford a nicer room, better food. Butler service....State funded language classes? The wealthy could pay for individual 1:1 language tuition from a professor of linguistics. Money can ALWAYS buy more than what is offered by the state. Whatever the state funded,no matter how fabulous, people with money could afford better becasue there is ALWAYS better available

Op am I correct in thinking you are in a very perilous financial situation yourself from another thread where you describe yourself as literally having 0 money.

I suspect that is a very real driver in your passion on this subject

This image speaks volumes.

In a perfect world I'd love to see them abolished. Not least because the people making the decisions about my children's' education were by and large unaffected - they sent theirs to the private sector.
Fortunately my two are through and out the other end, but in attending two 'top' universities they saw those places saturated with students who most definitely didn't share their educational background. The problem wasn't just private schools; it was grammars. Oxbridge proudly proclaim their state school percentages, but they include grammars in them. The number of comp kids at DS's college was vanishingly small. Let's start by getting rid of the two tier state education.

Redistribution of wealth, I assume was one of Corbyn's classics and that's been tried many times in several countries in Eastern Europe..

Yawn. Lazy comment. Many people favour standard European model. Nothing to do with communism.

So we shouldn’t have: private health, private dentists, private laser eye surgery etc? Private pensions?

If you shut all the private schools - how in gods holy name are we going to make the best decisions for our children? You’ve shit the schools down! 🤦🏻‍♀️ Are you anti -choice?