Nursery refusal

[HarryHarry]

If your child was or is a nursery or a school refuser, how did you know when to take them seriously when they said they didn’t want to go? To give in and let them stay at home?

I ask because my 2.5 year old son is extremely distressed at nursery. It’s been 8 months (minus a few weeks during lockdown) and he still isn’t getting used to it. In fact he is worse than ever. I know it’s normal for kids to cry at drop-off but I’ve never seen any other kid get into such a state. When I pick him up in the afternoons he is literally trembling like he’s been struggling to keep it together all day. I don’t want to remove him from the nursery as I think it will be good for him in the long-run (and also I don’t want to set a precedent for refusing primary school and secondary school) but I am a bit worried that it’s more than just normal separation anxiety/fear of the unfamiliar. Since he’s been going there he has become very sullen and emotional and fearful, even at home. He used to be so happy and carefree. The nursery workers don’t seem concerned but they don’t know what he’s like normally and also, he isn’t their child. They say he’s just picking up on my anxiety... but I wasn’t anxious until he started freaking out like this every day! The other children I see all seem totally content.

Please feel free to tell me that I’m overreacting - I really hope I am! I’d love to hear from parents who had similar and everything turned out fine!

Maybe take him with you to visit some more nurseries and see how he feels them? He may just not be comfortable with the environment or the staff.

I'm not saying I'm right but mine all hated nursery but enjoyed pre school before starting school.
I gave them a couple of times but none of them were having it.
If they don't have to go why send them? Horrible places anyway.

[quote ivfdreaming]@Namechangearoo

That's great for your child but not all children are the same and OPs son is obviously struggling with the environment [/quote]
Yeah I agree, but I don’t think it’s necessarily to do with the language. I live in a big expat community and none of my friends’ children have struggled with childcare from a language perspective. There’s something not right with OP’s child’s nursery but finding an English-speaking one shouldn’t be the priority IMO, just finding one with better staff/a happier environment.

So much utter bollocks.

I used to be a nanny and my little charge went to nursery one day a week. He would be upset on pick up and the staff said it was because he knew I was coming . Even if the implication was he didn't want to go home it was a stupid thing to say and was not true. I told his mum as I think this had happened a couple of times. They were then awful about any suggestions and he was removed.

Listen to your child. He is telling you he isn't happy.

Of course he knows they are speaking a language he doesn't understand and is different to his . He is two years old fgs.

MN nastiness - firstly mumsnet is a website not a person. No one has been nasty. Most of us can see what you can't and won't and are trying to make you see you are failing your child.

Absolutely change the nursery. It's not necessarily just about how good a nursery is, some children are just better suited to different places.

My eldest never really settled at her first nursery. It was an excellent nursery, and spaces were very much sought after. But I think the issue was it was always just so busy. There was never really any quiet time in the older room as they were always full. So always children running around being noisy. And for many children, that is absolutely fine. But my eldest is the sort of child that needs a little time to just quietly do her own thing in peace. They always sent my photos saying 'look how happy she looks' and 'emjoyong herself' and I would look at the photos, and I knew she wasn't happy. To many people she probably did look quite content, but as her mother I could see she wasn't happy.

So I changed her nursery and she settled in straight away. Its a much calmer environment with less children. She literally runs in to hug some if the staff, there's certainly no more tears or reluctance at pick up or drop off. She absolutely thrives there.

The difference isn't just at nursery either. She is so much more confident, and talkative and less clingy to me. Its done her a world of good. Don't underestimate the effect on them of being sent to childcare where they are unable to thrive

Move nursery. We had this he was petrified of going. We persevered for a few more months then pulled him out after the staff couldn't even keep their end of the plan we put together, agreed by both parties.

We moved him to another nursery and he flourished. Couldn't wait to get dressed and go. He's now about to start year 1 and the primary that the nursery is in. He's just recently said that the weekend was too long as he wants to be back at school.

Your boy could be refusing for a very good reason, listen to him he may well flourish elsewhere. With his behavioural changes do please move him.

“Most of us can see what you can't and won't and are trying to make you see you are failing your child”.

Ah thanks for that. It’s exactly what a struggling mother needs to hear. I’m failing my child. What a nice person you are.

I'm trying to help. Maybe you would struggle less if you didn't have a child who was permanently miserable .

Op, can I ask you why he is still there?

In my view, you came on MN looking for reassurance that this is all perfectly normal and all is fine for you son and all children experience this (no it isn't, and no they don't) you have been given the opposite answer - move him asap - which was unanimous - which is not a small achievement 109 messages in that you must move him. Always on MN you usually find a cross section of opinion, but here it was united.

You seem to be against the idea for reasons you have not shared with us. Perhaps it is time to tell us what is really going on, because I can't believe any mother would want this for their small child.

*your

Is there any way they could send you some pics or videos of him during the day?. That would give you a clearer idea of how he is coping. I understand your insistence on him learning the language but he's still so little and has plenty of time ahead of him. He won't be in a state to pick it up anyway if he's genuinely distressed.

OP, I tried a nursery school for my firstborn when he was 2.5, just because I thought it wouldn't do him any harm to be around people other than me, his dad and his siblings. His distress was horrendous, and we didn't continue with it. We did send him to the same nursery a year later, and he was a bit wobbly, but fine (the nursery was absolutely not the problem: it was a small nursery run by older ladies with grown-up children, and was next door).

I used to be glad that there wasn't any need for him to go (I was a SAHM). I only ever wanted him to go if it was going to add something positive to his life, not if it was going to upset him.

FWIW, I was a teacher before children, and I have considerable experience of children whose native language isn't the local language. Primary school children of any age pick up the local language very, very quickly. I remember one little girl in Reception who was French. She steadfastly refused to speak anything but French, though evidently understood absolutely everything, as she always responded to everything everyone said to her - only in French. She once told me (in French) that she was only going to speak French because she was French. She was in fact completely bilingual, though.

I'm all for perseverance. But this has been going on for far too long. You really need to try a different nursery.

I'm a childminder and I usually say they all settle eventually until a friends little boy started nursery. She persevered for a year and he got no better. They then switched to a childminder and he settled straight away

They have suggested that the trembling and crying at pickup are because he gets very emotional when he sees me.

That in itself is a clear sign that he is in distress before he sees you. It is common for toddlers to become emotional/overwhelmed/cry when a parent arrives to collect them at the end of settling in visits despite appearing calm before they arrive. This usually stops as the child settles.

@HarryHarry.
I am sorry that you are feeling 'got at' by some of the responses here, but I truly don't think people are trying to be unkind to you. Some of the replies do seem a bit blunt, but I suspect that's because the people posting are actually concerned for your little boy and some of your own replies don't give the impression that you are taking those concerns on board.
From my own experience, my dc1 struggled to settle at a playgroup at around 2 years of age. I was assured he was fine but it got ridiculous when he began to cry on the way there. I hung around (it was a small church group with an adjoining cafe) and heard that he cried solidly for a good half hour. When I decided he had had enough, I opened the doors to the playroom and found he was being terrorised by a few older (aged 4 ish) boys. The staff were ignoring it. When I queried it I was told that the older children would be leaving to go to school within a couple of weeks and things should then be better. I didn't wait to find out. I removed my son and kept him home until I found a playgroup that I felt would be better for him. He was naturally unsure the first time, but settled so quickly and never looked back.
Your son is unhappy. You are unhappy. Your husband seems to be happy to let your son suffer. Maybe you could try to build a friendship group of your own among other new parents? That way your son would be socialising and would pick up the language, as would you? I would certainly not be rushing to put him back into nursery unless absolutely necessary, he needs time to recover from what has been, for him, a traumatic experience.

Just to update... (Name changed but I was the OP)

I removed him from daycare. He was up all night crying about it so I told them the next day that he won’t be going back.

I just wanted to clarify that I wasn’t refusing to take people’s advice on board. My reluctance to remove him was simply based on the fear that I could be doing him more harm than good. There are no English schools here, but even if there were I wouldn’t send him to one because this is where he was born and where he will grow up. He has to learn the language. Neither my husband or I speak it so nursery is the only place he can learn it. We are not in a position to get a nanny or a tutor. Nursery was our only option. Unfortunately there are very few here. Everybody says that we were so lucky to get into this one and that we must be crazy to give it up. Apart from that I was also unsure whether my son was just going through an odd phase. As I said I’ve never seen the other kids in that state. I hoped that over time he would just grow out of it.

It might be difficult for you to understand if you’ve never been on your own with just your husband in a foreign country where you don’t speak the language, miles from family and friends, with no help, trying to raise 2 children. But I am trying to do my best for my son so I really didn’t appreciate people implying otherwise.

On top of this, I was being given conflicting advice by people back home and people here, so I was very confused. I guess it must be down to the cultural differences. When I told the nursery staff my decision, they did not take it well.

Nor did any of my acquaintances here. Not one but three different women here have now told me that I am harming him by removing him from nursery. The owner of another nursery we visited this week said disapprovingly that he was “too attached” to me to which I replied that I didn’t think it was possible for a 2 year old to be too attached to their mother. She said he must be picking up on my anxiety and insecurity - having met me for the first time 5 minutes earlier, I don’t know what that was based on. I honestly don’t think I am doing anything differently to any other parent. I am no more insecure or anxious than any other mother would be in this situation, so I don’t accept that I have made my son insecure or anxious. That’s just the way he is at the moment. Anyway they all think I should keep forcing him to go to nursery for his own good.

So now I have Mumsnetters in the UK telling me that I’m failing him for making him go, and women where I live telling me that I’m failing him for letting him stay home with me.

I’m sticking to my decision though everybody where I live thinks I’m making a mistake.

Hi OP

Please dont take messages on here to heart. I speak from experience when I say people will come out wit hilarious, sweeping judgements about you from a post of a few lines. You know in your heart of hearts they arent true. Dont let them get to you. When I had my first baby MN both exacerbated and helped my PND in equal measure.

Well done for listening to your gut. It sounds like you did the right thing. Ignore everyone else.

You got this!

I think you did the right thing, OP. It's often hard to know what to do for the best, especially when you're trying to navigate different cultural norms and practices. Everyone here thought we were insane not to send our kids to creche from 6 months, and even that was probably too late and they'd turn out to be antisocial clingy children who can't function in society. But for us, the right thing to do was to wait until they were older, although that comes with its own challenges. You can only do your best with the information and experience you have when you're making decisions - and since you have to live with them, they have to be decisions that you think are right, regardless of MN or your neighbours. I hope you find a new place that's a better fit for your child and where they are happier - it doesn't have to work for anyone else, after all.

@HarryHarry1 I can very much relate to your last post. You're not living in Belgium by any chance are you? It's sometimes hard for people to understand that there are very different attitudes to childcare in different countries and that as a parent you're getting very mixed messages!

In Belgium I found attitudes quite rigid, there were set adaptation processes which you felt obliged to follow because it was 'best' for the children even if it didn't feel right for your child and went against every instinct. If you sought to do anything differently it felt like you were being difficult, or oddly damaging your child in some way so they wouldn't be ready for school, which starts at a young age. Just my personal experience and I'm sure not true for everyone. Anyway, we were fortunate and managed to find a lovely bilingual creche which was happy to be a bit more flexible and felt like a good fit for us. We were very much the odd ones out for only sending our daughter part time from 18 months. Then we came back to the UK and had the whole cultural misunderstanding all over again. It's very hard!

I think you've absolutely done the right thing pulling him out and hope he feels happier and more settled for it. Sorry you got so many harsh messages on here, some people are unkind and unhelpful.

Haha, just seen @MumInBrussels post above, apparently we weren't the only insane ones in Brussels .

And OP, I had the 'too attached' accusation levelled at me quite often. People would often tell me that I was going to raise a child who would never leave my side or be independent. It's absolute rubbish and so unkind to say to a mum trying to do the best for her child. Try not to worry about the judgements (on either side!), easier said than done I know.

The owner of another nursery we visited this week said disapprovingly that he was “too attached” to me to which I replied that I didn’t think it was possible for a 2 year old to be too attached to their mother.

You're right. Children rely on secure attachments with their to give them the confidence they need to separate successfully and explore the wider world.

Some children don't cope well in group childcare. Your DS is clearly one of them. There is no evidence that children need to attend nursery so you are absolutely not harming him by withdrawing him. There is, however, plenty of evidence that trauma in early childhood affects their outcomes so you have done the right thing.

There'll never be a shortage of people to tell you that you are doing the wrong thing by not persisting. Some will do it because, if they admit that you're doing the right thing, it will undermine decisions they have made about their own children. Others simply don't understand that young children need to feel safe to learn and develop.

I hope your DS recovers quickly.

Thank you all. No I’m not in Belgium but somewhere that is, I think, culturally quite similar.

We went to collect his things from the nursery today and he was panicking in the car just from the sight of the building. I took him to say goodbye to the staff - they just said “Bye” and turned away, so obviously they didn’t really care about him. I previously wrote them quite a long email explaining things to which they responded “OK”. No questions, no expressions of sympathy, no curiosity about what could have caused it or what they could have done to make it better. So that’s that.

It sounds like you’ve definitely done the right thing to me. Especially considering your latest post. I hope you manage to find the right kind of childcare for him in the future. Parenting is bloody hard work, trying to work out what to do for the best certainly isn’t always straight forward.

I hope that experience confirms to you that removing him was exactly the right thing to do. It sounds like you got a dose of what was dished out to him while he was in their care and that wasn't ever going to be healthy.

I hope he recovers quickly x