Nursery refusal

[HarryHarry]

If your child was or is a nursery or a school refuser, how did you know when to take them seriously when they said they didn’t want to go? To give in and let them stay at home?

I ask because my 2.5 year old son is extremely distressed at nursery. It’s been 8 months (minus a few weeks during lockdown) and he still isn’t getting used to it. In fact he is worse than ever. I know it’s normal for kids to cry at drop-off but I’ve never seen any other kid get into such a state. When I pick him up in the afternoons he is literally trembling like he’s been struggling to keep it together all day. I don’t want to remove him from the nursery as I think it will be good for him in the long-run (and also I don’t want to set a precedent for refusing primary school and secondary school) but I am a bit worried that it’s more than just normal separation anxiety/fear of the unfamiliar. Since he’s been going there he has become very sullen and emotional and fearful, even at home. He used to be so happy and carefree. The nursery workers don’t seem concerned but they don’t know what he’s like normally and also, he isn’t their child. They say he’s just picking up on my anxiety... but I wasn’t anxious until he started freaking out like this every day! The other children I see all seem totally content.

Please feel free to tell me that I’m overreacting - I really hope I am! I’d love to hear from parents who had similar and everything turned out fine!

My DD never went well to nursery, cried every day until third term of year 1 in school! And even now, (going into y4), we have to have a little routine where I I wave at her at her class window once she has taken off coat, bag etc ...
In fact the first nursery asked us ‘to leave’ because she cried to much.
We out her in with a child minder first a year, then back to (a different and more welcoming) nursery when she was 3. She still cried every day but was better whilst there.
I say try a different setting.
How is you child once they are there and you have gone?

I don't like the sound of the nursery staff at all from what you've said. They should be working with you on how to help settle your son, not parent blaming you saying that you're causing the anxiety - utter tosh!

It's not normal.to not settle after that length of time. Plus, I had a non English speaking child for 9 hours a week when I was childminding. He was fluent in English within 3 months. If you're son is not picking up the 2nd language I'd wonder what was going on there.

He's 2.5 years old. I would pull him out of there. He won't suffer in school because he didn't go to.nursery at 2. Do you have registered childminders where you are? Perhaps he'd benefit from a smaller setting? Or, if you want him to get used to being with other people, perhaps hire a babysitter to come to your house?

My son didn't settle at the preschool that my daughter loved. He hated it there and it took a long time for him to settle. They used to have to peel him off me as he'd grab hold of me when it was time to go in. I persevered because I thought it was the right thing to do. When he was older, he told me he hated it because one of the ladies hit him. Years and years later, if we ever go past that preschool, he always mentioned it. No problems settling in at school so I know it was that preschool. I later found out other parents had problems with their children there. With hindsight, I should have removed him. I thought at 3, he needed to be there otherwise he wouldn't go to school but I think I was wrong there.

No wonder he can't settle when they can't speak English around him so its making the environment even more unsettling and isolating

I'd find somewhere English speaking

When I pick him up in the afternoons he is literally trembling like he’s been struggling to keep it together all day

Why is he still there after eight months? He is a toddler and literally trembling he is so afraid, why are you putting him through this? It is not normal at all.

Since he’s been going there he has become very sullen and emotional and fearful, even at home. He used to be so happy and carefree

This points to a much deeper problem, his behaviour has changed even outside of nursery.

Almost every post has advised you to take him out, immediately if you can, and you are still persisting that the nursery staff 'act like its normal'. As if that is important somehow.

What is important is that your child is not damaged in the long term by a traumatic nursery experience. If you decide to leave him there that is a matter for you, but the thread is nearly 80 posts long and not one person has suggested this is 'normal' or a good idea to continue.

You are at home anyway, keep him at home. Hire a babysitter for an hour or two if you need a break, but this arrangement is very bad for your child.

Bloody hell. Just take him out.

@ivfdreaming

No wonder he can't settle when they can't speak English around him so its making the environment even more unsettling and isolating

I'd find somewhere English speaking

Just to say - this is not my experience. My son’s at a local nursery and has learned the language very very quickly. They don’t speak any English with him and he had absolutely zero understanding of the local language when he started. It didn’t seem to bother him and initially he used pointing or miming to be understood (he was one) and within 6 months he had could understand the staff and say a few words himself. Now, at two, he is fully bilingual.

Language is not the issue here, the nursery are not doing a good job and I think he needs to be moved too. But it doesn’t necessarily have to be somewhere English-speaking. The benefits of learning a second language young are huge (as long as the environment is supportive and the child feels secure of course).

I hated schools and being separated from my mum. It wouldn’t take a lot For me to keep my son at home, but I can I’m a sahm x

@Namechangearoo

That's great for your child but not all children are the same and OPs son is obviously struggling with the environment

I think I would have more sympathy if op had agreed by post 57 that she was taking him out, immediately but she seems to be quite intent on him staying at the nursery for some reason. Almost looking for excuses as to why he should stay in her latest update.

No one for any reason should be putting their child into a childcare setting that causes them to tremble with fear, and the child is still doing so eight months on. Am I the only one that thinks this is highly highly damaging to a small child?!

Try a different nursery- I wouldn’t make him go if he’s that unhappy as it’ll make him more frightened and will tell him you don’t respond when he’s communicating that he’s frightened. Something may have happened early on to spook him.

Maybe try a childminder (often cheaper than nursery) or nanny (if you could afford it) or try another nursery. Ask a new nursery if you can do lots of settling sessions and stay with him, doing gradual withdrawal (if your work allows) until he’s happier - but I wouldn’t leave him somewhere where he’s that miserable.

Our 16 m/o DS settled in well after the usual week or two of tears when initially going at 14 months, but had he still been upset after a month or so I think we’d have looked for another setting.

A friend had a toddler who hated it, and she’s ended up using a childminder instead, which suits her DS better.

So you moved his group and it's been a month? How is he now compared to last group? Sibling anxiety could be an issue. Is he still trembling at pick up?

Some children are not suited to group care where they may not get enough one on one with one specific adult to form a close bond. For those children a childminder is usually a more suitable form of care. Theres a big difference in the level of adult attention a child gets in a room where there are 9 children and 3 staff and all the children are the same age with the same needs, vs 1 childminder with 3 children who are different ages and thus have different needs that can often be met simultaneously.
Eg CM with 18m old, 3 yr old and 4 yr old - 4 yr old likely to play quite independently and just chat to CM. 3yr old may want CM more involved in a game, but wont need to be held etc. 18m old may want to sit on CM lap. CM can do all 3, nursery worker with 3 18m old can't hold all three. For a clingier child CM may work better, for a very social child who likes to be with peers, nursery works better.

Ps also you cannot leave your child in care that he clearly hates for months and months just because its "the best one in town" and you think he will learn the language there (he hasnt so far?!).

It's the language barrier OP! What a massive drip feed! He cannot communicate his needs to others looking after him. You need to move him to somewhere that either speaks English or get him and yourself fluent in the local language ASAP!!

My dd2 hated nursery. We tried her at multiple intervals but was very similar to yours. We started it back up again when she was nearly 4 and she was much better. I was really worried about her starting school but she she had the best time and couldn’t wait to back the next day.

Dd3 gave zero fucks and started at 1

You initially said that being at nursery will be good for him in the long run, let me just say that nothing good will come from him being traumatised this young.
In the short term you can already see changes in his mood and personality, the longer this goes on the more damage it will do in the long run.
Please move him.
My son was in a child care setting (around your son’s age) he was distressed and unhappy at drop off every day, at pick up he either seemed relieved or still unhappy. I was a single parent so had to work but I changed my childcare and the improvement in my son was amazing, difficulties disappearing with in a week or so. My regret is taking so long to see what was obvious.
My son is in his twenties now and still speaks about it at times.
I say again PLEASE move him, time is precious and you never get it back.

Following because we had the same issue with C minder. Started Oct 2019.....stil crying at drop off when we went into lockdown. He used to start in the car once h realised where we were going 😢. Seemed ok when we picked him up but never looked very cheery.

I just sort of got on with it but my DH had to do drop off for 2 wks at end of Feb an h was like WTH this is awful. I thought as he settled once he was there it might be ok but seeing now maybe it's not.

My DS went through a similar stage at that exact age. It turned out that heated one of the worker. She didn't come until later so had never met her, but parents started to talk about her in anon so kind way. Then one day I dropped him later and got to see her in the act. She was very abrupt, shouty in her manner, not smiling, and my boy was just petrified of her especially as he was then a bit naughty and she particularly had it for him.

In the end, the manager didn't want to speak badly of her but suggested he moved to the older group, in a separate building because he was quite advanced and probably bored anyway.

That was the change of him. He had a brilliant key worker, firm but fair and also very affectionate. He got to start learning numbers and letters and he lived it. He settled so well, he was a changed child.

I then found out that area months later, the other key worker had moved, whether of her own accord or not, I don't know but everyone was relieved.

Your update seems at odds with your original posts so it's hard to say for sure.

However, I have a child the same age and there's no way on earth I'd keep sending her back anywhere if she was literally trembling in fear - no way. If there's really no other childcare options (my DD goes to a child minder part time and I've found this option way better with more timid children as it's a home from home) then if it's possible to keep him home I would do that and try again when he turns three.

Two year olds don't "need" nursery. Some thrive there and that's great but many would rather be at home and pushing them is counter productive. I've seen this with a couple of my friends, they send their DC before they're ready as they think they "should" that's it's "good for them" when many times it really isn't. Obviously in your case it may be a necessity work wise, but if it's just to teach him the language then just wait a while. If he's as stressed as you imply he would find it difficult to pick anything up and will just be overwhelmed. I'd wait til he's calm and happy and the language will come much easier.

Poor boy, that sounds absolutely awful and I can't believe you have put him through it for eight months. It is obviously not the right setting for him, for whatever reason.
Although your latest post is a massive backtrack so I suspect you have no intention of moving him and only posted for reassurance that it's normal (it's not).

I speak as someone who had to put both her children into part time childcare from the age of 13 months, so I'm not anti childcare in any way. But no way would I have continued with a setting that was causing my child distress like you described in your OP.

We did the same with my oldest, put him in creche when he was 2.5 so he could learn French and get used to being away from us in a smaller group before starting school (which happens here between 2.5 and 3 years old). He never really liked it, but he did learn things - we had lots of tears at drop off, but he was ok after that. When he started school, I was worried, but he never had any problems at school despite not ever being thrilled about creche.

If you've only been in this group for a couple of months, I'd try it - I don't think it's likely to be a language barrier issue (the kids here all eventually manage - there are very few English-language creches, let alone other language options, so there's not much choice) and if it is, it's probably better to get the language sorted before he has to go to school, I reckon. (The previous poster saying to just send him to a English-language international school may not have taken into account the usually astronomical costs of these...) We've found that attitudes towards acceptable levels of crying vary considerably, but there is a generally higher acceptance of leaving children to try and calm themselves down here than I'm entirely comfortable with - there's no way to change this, though, and I try to tell myself that Belgian children don't all end up mentally scarred as a result! If he carries on being upset in the new group, I'd think again about leaving him there - but there's a lot of adjustments that need to made and a month or so isn't that long to get used to it, if I've understood the timeline properly. When does he start school? That will also have an impact on whether you choose to move him - if he's starting school in January, might not be worth the disruption moving him now, even if you can find a place.

Yes, I thought my dd was fine as she had stopped crying by the time I got around to the window and often a member of staff would be reading to her. It was a shock when they said she admit settled and if she didn't by X time they'd have to get her assessed. She never spent another minute there.

Take the poor child out. Bloody hell.

This has made me really sad.
Poor boy.

They have suggested that the trembling and crying at pickup are because he gets very emotional when he sees me. They insist he is fine throughout the day. I am conflicted because as I said I have never seen other children behave like that at drop off and pick up. I never said that he cried all day. I said it seems like he’s been upset the whole time because he’s in such a state whenever I see him. That’s why I was unsure whether I was overreacting. He might be fine during the day, I just don’t know.

I’m reluctant to believe that it’s the language barrier. At that age I don’t think he even realises that they are speaking a different language. Going to an English nursery is not an option. This is where we will be living for the forseeable future, we have to learn the language.

Other childcare options like childminder etc are not regulated by the govt here so I won’t consider them.

I have to think very carefully about what to do as there are very few options available to us. I can’t take immediate action just because some people on MN say so. This is our real life and there are many factors to consider. It’s not as simple as “Get a nanny”.

To the person who said I was assuming that people without children don’t care... Well, your twisting of my words isn’t worth a response but I will give you one anyway. I said they don’t care AS MUCH as his parent would because he’s not their child, and they don’t understand how distressing it is to see your child in that state because they’ve never had to do it. They see crying children all the time. It doesn’t affect them the way it would if it was their child crying. Obviously.

I won’t be replying again as I see the usual MN nastiness is starting to rear its ugly head. Thank you to those who replied. I’m grateful for your point of view.

Wow, I don't think anyone on here intended for you to be upset, and no one would encourage you to use unlicensed childcare providers, but your little boy is displaying extremely worrying behaviour, and I imagine the trembling is relief if it is when you collect him, which is really no better than with fear. Whatever the reason, he should not be trembling at all, and should be full of chatter and happy to see you. This is not normal at all.

Have you considered that they might be mistreating him there?

I don't think anyone has been brave enough to say this, but I think something is very wrong.

I don't know why you are not just moving him, are you finding it difficult to cope overseas with the a new baby? I think you need to really consider why he is still there op, I am sorry it is distressing for you, but it is for anyone reading your post. Most of all for your little boy.