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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that the Scottish government should not have caved over exam results?

391 replies

Notthemessiah · 11/08/2020 17:11

So the Scottish government have caved in and have given their students the grades that their teachers have said they should get, despite the fact that overall they are massively inflated compared to previous years actual real results.

AIBU to think that this will massively penalise those pupils at schools where teachers were actually honest and realistic about their students likely results and instead benefit those who chose fantasy figures either through actual deceit, sheer wishful thinking or believing that the grades would be downgraded by some kind of system anyway.

Everyone was bleating about how it was unfair that pupils going to worse-performing schools got their results downgraded, but the stats don't lie - theirs were much more inflated compared to previous years that those from better-performing schools and it's ridiculous to think that all of them were suddenly going to improve this year.

It was always going to be an unfair system whatever happened but this just turns this year's results into a total joke - how universities, employers etc are expected to interpret them and compare them to other years is anyone's guess.

I hope that this doesn't happen in England and Wales too but it's hard to see how it can't - otherwise it puts Scottish students at a big advantage over their English and Welsh compatriots.

OP posts:
celtiethree · 11/08/2020 22:24

Between 2017 and 2019 there were a total of 141 offers by Oxford to Scottish students - that’s the 3 year total. 128 were admitted 1.7% of the total. Assuming the difference of 13 is missed rather than withdrawn offers I’m pretty sure Oxford will cope with the avg of 4 students who may have have benefitted from this years process.

noblegiraffe · 11/08/2020 22:24

this year, this student is on course to get an A which might make 2 more getting As than last year, which leads to being downgraded.

Do you have no previous recorded results to assess the relative ability of the cohort to the previous one, like SATs?

Given that the pass rate increased by 4% on last year, they didn’t automatically downgrade if you had 2 As this year and 1 last year.

Mistressiggi · 11/08/2020 22:26

How would I have done it?
Something like - tell us our predicted grades will be the final grade (we did not know this) but that a random sample of students from each school will be selected for verification (basically we would have to submit work to back up the grade, but not for every pupil).
OR, do what they have done, but much earlier in the summer (no marking after all so less admin involved), submit grades to schools only and allow a free appeal process to run in time to meet the uni coursing dates.

Flyonawalk · 11/08/2020 22:29

I approve of the Scottish decision. I heartily disapproved of the cancellation of exams.

So much in 2020 is exceptional. Millions of people are not normally paid to stay home and not work. On that point an exception was made to avoid wholesale ruin. I am glad to see similar grace extended to this year’s beleaguered school-leavers.

Charleyhorses · 11/08/2020 22:33

What I think is this;
You are factually correct.
However, it will be interesting to see what impact these so called inflated grades have. I'd be surprised if there is any other than positive.
And given that actually a fair number of students do pull their socks up after mocks I think it's not unfair overall.
It is unfair that they didn't get to do their exams nor get any of the closure of leaving school properly.

Therewillbetroubleahead · 11/08/2020 22:34

I am glad to see similar grace extended to this year’s beleaguered school-leavers.

What about next year’s school leavers? They have lost a term of schooling and will find next year, and in the jobs market that they are competing against this year’s leavers except their pass mark will have miraculously fallen again.

SmileEachDay · 11/08/2020 22:36

Mistressiggi

Submitting work as evidence just wouldn’t have worked - absolutely impossible to moderate thousands of different bits of work. And how would schools have gathered it? 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

I don’t know if there is significantly less admin to facilitate an earlier release - it’s the same amount of data, just coming from schools not markers 🤷🏻‍♀️

Mistressiggi · 11/08/2020 22:37

Noble, for many of them we had Higher results from the year before (they can do highers in S5 and 6) so it was pretty clear it was a strong group - if you saw they got an A or B in H English you would expect an A or B in another essay based subject. The SQA weren't looking at individual students' previous performance in that way, but the subject's performance. I can't really give more details about my own results as the class was identifiably small.
Anyway it is apocalyptic weather here tonight, thunder and lightening, hopefully not a bad omen for the children's return tomorrow.

titchy · 11/08/2020 22:38

@celtiethree

Between 2017 and 2019 there were a total of 141 offers by Oxford to Scottish students - that’s the 3 year total. 128 were admitted 1.7% of the total. Assuming the difference of 13 is missed rather than withdrawn offers I’m pretty sure Oxford will cope with the avg of 4 students who may have have benefitted from this years process.
Fair enough! Student number control though - Oxford can't risk being even one over. Financial penalties are huge. So they won't want to take the risk with English students. Although Ox admissions is devolved to colleges which makes managing the whole somewhat, errr, challenging....
Mistressiggi · 11/08/2020 22:38

Smile we had it ready to send in many cases - part of the course is an externally assessed assignment produced under exam conditions, all done and ready to post. Never looked at.

titchy · 11/08/2020 22:40

@Therewillbetroubleahead

I am glad to see similar grace extended to this year’s beleaguered school-leavers.

What about next year’s school leavers? They have lost a term of schooling and will find next year, and in the jobs market that they are competing against this year’s leavers except their pass mark will have miraculously fallen again.

Scottish elections will have happened by then so who cares....
SmileEachDay · 11/08/2020 22:41

Smile we had it ready to send in many cases - part of the course is an externally assessed assignment produced under exam conditions, all done and ready to post. Never looked at

That’s really frustrating for you :(

It wouldn’t have been possible to do that for subjects across the board though.

Mistressiggi · 11/08/2020 22:44

Of course there was less admin, Smile, in that the Sqa normally organise markers, to mark, after the exams are finished and then sort out all the results. This year before the markers would have normally touched a paper, all the finalised estimates were already in. So they saved time as well as a fortune in markers' fees.
It's actually hard to discuss this with people unfamiliar with the Scottish system as there are so many things that are clear to teachers here and are so different elsewhere. I know a thread about Scottish exam results is interesting to non-Scottish people in relation to their own results, but to be honest I don't want to have to explain parts of my job anymore. I thought there would be a bit more support from teachers elsewhere, who surely know what it's like when people make assumptions about their jobs.

Mistressiggi · 11/08/2020 22:49

There are assignments in English, History, Geography, Economics, RMPS, folios in Art, practical tests (by teachers) in languages, drama, PE.
I think Maths is all exam though Smile

celtiethree · 11/08/2020 22:50

titchy Oxford stats make quite interesting reading. Stats show that Scotland accounts for 4.9% of the population that achieves AAA or better but only 1.7% of admissions (deriving equivalent grades). Greater London 18.8% vs 26.9 % for admissions. Undoubtedly because of the low numbers applying from Scotland but I’m rooting for those few extras! Reality is if you had an Oxbridge offed you probably had the right CAG and were not impacted by moderation.

SmileEachDay · 11/08/2020 22:51

Mistressiggi

I think the admin would have been different but not necessarily less onerous because it was a totally new “system” to the exam boards also.

I’m not making assumptions. I’m also not attacking you - the entire CAG situation is hideous for everyone.

noblegiraffe · 11/08/2020 22:54

Mistress do you know if the SQA used the highers results from the previous year for that cohort to decide if that cohort was stronger than the previous year?

I’m trying to understand if the assumption that the SQA made was that the cohort strength was the same as the previous years.

Mistressiggi · 11/08/2020 22:55

Physics, biology, modern studies too - all have coursework that could have been used.
I'm not saying that would have been the best way, but it was an alternative to what happened. (Displaying my "can do" attitude here Wink )
I do think there's a sense of "well it was a shit storm in Scotland so they must have done it wrong" - I'm quite sure some schools did, but the teachers I know personally worked very hard on this. I think this probably isn't a week we want to feel criticised in, all things considered! Grin

Mistressiggi · 11/08/2020 22:58

It is my understanding Noble that they did not use the specifics of students' previous grades. Just the three year pattern for the subject. In a smaller, non-core subject you don't need the whole cohort to have been stronger, just the ones who picked your subject. Even one S6 getting a couple of her equally swotty pals to chum her in your class can do that!

SmileEachDay · 11/08/2020 23:06

Mistressiggi

I’m sorry if I made you feel that way. It’s an impossible situation and I don’t want to add to any teacher’s stress.

noblegiraffe · 11/08/2020 23:09

That sucks, Mistress. Whoever thought that English schools would be grateful for KS2 SATs?!

The option of telling teachers that the kids were going to get their CAGs but that they would be moderated by a review of a sample of work sounds good, but if the evidence submitted isn’t standardised in any way (like coursework), then how can anyone assess whether it supports the grade assigned?

I don’t know, there are no good options. But I feel incredibly sorry for the teachers who are now directly responsible for their kids not passing.

noblegiraffe · 11/08/2020 23:11

well it was a shit storm in Scotland so they must have done it wrong

God no. It was the people in charge who did it wrong, not the teachers.

SmileEachDay · 11/08/2020 23:12

God no. It was the people in charge who did it wrong, not the teachers

Exactly this.

Opendraw · 11/08/2020 23:14

They didn’t cave they simply realised there is not a chance or the manpower to deal with the huge volume of appeals (125000 downgraded) in a limited time frame. That’s the issue. I know a fair number of kids that were predicted B, prelim result also a B and was awarded a D. The system was flawed from the outset the SQA should have found a way to mark the available coursework.

Mistressiggi · 11/08/2020 23:16

Well to be fair, some of the teachers probably did it wrong! I saw someone on another thread saying the teacher who gave their son his estimate had taught them for one month, after a series of supply.
(No prizes for guessing the subject Grin )

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