To think that the Scottish government should not have caved over exam results?

[Notthemessiah]

So the Scottish government have caved in and have given their students the grades that their teachers have said they should get, despite the fact that overall they are massively inflated compared to previous years actual real results.

AIBU to think that this will massively penalise those pupils at schools where teachers were actually honest and realistic about their students likely results and instead benefit those who chose fantasy figures either through actual deceit, sheer wishful thinking or believing that the grades would be downgraded by some kind of system anyway.

Everyone was bleating about how it was unfair that pupils going to worse-performing schools got their results downgraded, but the stats don't lie - theirs were much more inflated compared to previous years that those from better-performing schools and it's ridiculous to think that all of them were suddenly going to improve this year.

It was always going to be an unfair system whatever happened but this just turns this year's results into a total joke - how universities, employers etc are expected to interpret them and compare them to other years is anyone's guess.

I hope that this doesn't happen in England and Wales too but it's hard to see how it can't - otherwise it puts Scottish students at a big advantage over their English and Welsh compatriots.

far lesser than the damage that would have been done to individual futures if the moderated results stood.

The moderated results gave a pass rate about 4% higher than last year. I’m not entirely sure what the new pass rate will be as they are apparently restoring all downgraded results, but not downgrading any upgraded results, but it means the pass rate will have increased by about 14% from last year, and in the most disadvantaged areas by about 20%.

They might as well have said ‘fuck it, you all pass this year’.

@Oblomov20

I completely disagree OP. I doubt the teachers lied etc as you describe and over-inflated the grades much.

The stats will give lie to that. The grades have been hugely overestimated (some schools by as much as 50 - 60% on previous achievements). So basically every pupil in Scotland has had their achievement tainted because of the disgraceful actions of the Scottish Government in this.

Anyone would think there is a Scottish election next year at which these young people will be eligible to vote.

excessively penalising kids from poor areas

They weren’t excessively penalised. Pupils from each quartile saw their pass rate increase by about 4% from last year.

It's a shambles. The pass rate was actually up compared to the previous year. SQA qualifications have lost their integrity, but Nicola has upped her future votes.

@Dylaninthemovies1

I completely disagree. I’m from one of the most deprived areas in Scotland, but received excellent exam marks at Standard Grade: so probably 7A* and and A at English GCSe level. If this happened this year, my grades would have been significantly downgraded because my school generally didn’t have high marks. Whereas a child in the nearby affluent area of Bearsden would have already had numerous advantages to get those same marks would have been very unlikely to have a significant downgrade in marks.

Kids from deprived areas already have a much harder climb up the ladder of success with multiple difficulties. This exam results fiasco basically just kicked the fucking ladder away from them entirely. The Scottish government were right to listen and take action

Thats totally fair, but the exam system is not supposed to account for background or wealth and it certainly has never done so in the past. Maybe it should (though I don't know how you could do it fairly), but to do it for only one year is ridiculous and to do so in such a half-arsed way?

It is completely stupid to let the grades for one year be entirely based on some teachers obviously biased over-estimates. You can't deny that this disadvantages a lot of other kids who were relying on the system they thought they were studying under (but which has now been completely pulled out from underneath them) to be fair.

And for those of you banging on about the appeals system. It’s a lot easier to negotiate this when you have middle class educated parents to support and push this.

As a teenager I had very little support from parents with regards to education; it wasn’t their “thing” and they had no idea where to start. I worked 25 hours a week while studying for highers as we needed the money. I had no pressure to study, was completely self motivated. Had no role models to look up to locally, and parents couldn’t have afforded private tuition. It was more of a struggle to get those high marks than it would have been for a MC child: but I did it.

Today there will have been kids in council estates all over Scotland just like me, who worked their arses off for decent marks. It would have massively let them down to have let those downgraded marks stand

And for those of you banging on about the appeals system. It’s a lot easier to negotiate this when you have middle class educated parents to support and push this

It was to be done by schools not parents though. And it was going to be free.

Notthemessiah

Given the way that they have decided to award the grades this year YABU.

My old school had 51% of their results downgraded because the school is in a deprived area.

I got four As and a B when I was at said school, I'd hate to see what they'd have given me if I'd been there this year.

The original method was so discriminatory that I was amazed it had been agreed upon.

@Notthemessiah. The issue was that many kids were on track for high marks, but were downgraded due to the schools poor past performance: not their own poor past performance. This was much more likely to happen to children in deprived areas.

I’m not saying kids from deprived areas should have their marks artificially inflated. But they should absolutely not have their marks downgraded (and more punitively downgraded than those from more wealthy areas).

They should not have taken the schools past performance into account. The childs past exam performance, yes. But not the schools

@noblegiraffe. Trust me, the middle class parents would have been the first on the phone demanding that all their kids marks were appealed. Squeaky wheel etx.

A levels out in NI this week too. Will be interesting to see what happens.

BBC NI did report yesterday that the predicted grades would have meant far more A grades than in previous years so there was definitely some inflation going on.

How did it pass at the SQA? Clearly noone involved was the bright hardworking kid at a poorly performing school.

My old school had 51% of their results downgraded because the school is in a deprived

No, they had 51% of their results downgraded because the school’s prior performance suggested that the teachers had been overly optimistic.

Overly optimistic predictions seemed to happen more for disadvantaged students than better off students.

If lots of a school’s results were downgraded, that suggests an issue with the teacher predictions.

And if not, and the teachers could evidence their optimistic predictions, then the appeals process was available.

@Dylaninthemovies1

And for those of you banging on about the appeals system. It’s a lot easier to negotiate this when you have middle class educated parents to support and push this.

As a teenager I had very little support from parents with regards to education; it wasn’t their “thing” and they had no idea where to start. I worked 25 hours a week while studying for highers as we needed the money. I had no pressure to study, was completely self motivated. Had no role models to look up to locally, and parents couldn’t have afforded private tuition. It was more of a struggle to get those high marks than it would have been for a MC child: but I did it.

Today there will have been kids in council estates all over Scotland just like me, who worked their arses off for decent marks. It would have massively let them down to have let those downgraded marks stand

Wrong wrong wrong. It’s schools who submit appeals, not parents. All the pupil has to do is ask the school to instigate it. Also - people in “council estates” (like me) aren’t all in poverty btw. Appeals are free this year and SQA had set up and ready to manage the extra expected because of the process. No-one who deserved a grade would have lost out by the end of appeals.

It’s political interference and has totally undermined those kids from ALL backgrounds who actually deserved their grade.

@noblegiraffe; across the board the results may have been higher. But because of the way they were calculated they didn’t take into account how an individual would have scored. They downgraded the marks based on past performance of the school. Not the individual child. And this was much more likely to happen to children in deprived areas

Dylan I’m sure the middle class parents would be. But usually the appeals process costs money and therefore schools, who are short of cash, sometimes have to rely on parents to pay for appeals. This clearly benefits the better off parents, but wouldn’t have applied this year. Schools could have appealed whoever they liked, and they definitely would where reasonable, because it’s in the school’s interests to improve results.

A case could certainly have been made for improving whatever system or algorithms they were using or even allow for an easy to access appeals process that worked for all pupils regardless of background, but throwing all of it out and saying "fuck it" (as a PP said) is far worse.

Oh god honestly? These poor fucking kids, what an absolutely shit year to turn 18, all of the ones I know have been incredibly well behaved in the face of everything they've lost out on. To literally downgrade their exam results on the basis of where they went to school is a kick in the teeth on top of everything else. No one is going to take the statistics from this year and ever compare them to any other year in history or the future, it makes no sense to. Give them this one thing fgs. And no I don't have a child getting Scottish exam results this year either.

And I completely agree with the above poster about middle class students being much better placed to appeal. The system is rigged toward those that already have so much. Just possibly some good will come from this when a child who was held back by circumstance gets the opportunity it needs.

It is completely stupid to let the grades for one year be entirely based on some teachers obviously biased over-estimates

Why are they obviously biased over-estimates? Teachers are professionals who know their pupils well. The Scottish government has totally screwed up with this one and now needs to do what they can to put it right.

@Augustseemsbetter

The original method was so discriminatory that I was amazed it had been agreed upon.

It wasn’t really. It had already been pointed out that this process would cause fallout. SQA’s lead statistician resigned in March as he didn’t agree with the methodology. He was replaced by a team of three statisticians on placement from the Scottish Government....(the SQA CE was recruited from Swinney’s Education team as well)

Go figure

Effectively it doesn't matter in the long run. As they had it initially would have mattered as the kids who would have got the grades would have definitely have suffered.

Now all students get to succeed, or not, at the next stage, each according to ability.

What we now need to be shouting is that the individual teachers, schools, colleges etc don't get the usual penalty for this cohort if/when it under achieves.

That and more flexibility for the failing student to change course once they know what their true strengths and weaknesses are.

It doesn't have to be a battle, but the funding streams have to be managed accordingly, or the issue will have just been kicked down the road a bit!

But because of the way they were calculated they didn’t take into account how an individual would have scored

Yes they did, that’s what the teacher assessed grades and rankings were for - looking at how an individual would have scored.

I’m not surprised that some schools have swathes of kids downgraded. Some schools will have been overly optimistic.

I don’t doubt grades were overinflated by the way. They will have been!

I disagree with the way that they tried to remedy the results inflation: by using the schools past performance rather than the individuals past performance.