Page 15 | Institutional Racism in our policing - Dawn Butler MP

AuntyPasta · 2020-08-09T17:48:20+00:00

[[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/09/labour-mp-dawn-butler-stopped-by-police-in-london]] The police stopped the car being driven by her friend (she was a passenger.) Unlike the elite athletes stopped with their 3 month old baby in the car [[https://www.theguardian.com/law/2020/jul/06/why-did-police-stop-and-search-bianca-williams-and-ricardo-dos-santos]] she’s had an apology. AIBU to think that if she wasn’t an MP the police would be sticking by their ‘reasonable suspicion’? Is that what it takes to be dealt with fairly by the police?

MistressMounthaven · 11/08/2020 12:09

link to a 2018 sky news article - more black boys are being killed
news.sky.com/story/black-murder-victims-and-suspects-london-v-uk
If I was a mother of a teen in London I'd welcome stop and search.
The videos of police and loud complaints seem to be from middle class people. Their children are probably not found in the risky areas.

MistressMounthaven · 11/08/2020 12:16

f all that they have to worry about being vilified by the police, who are supposed to protect them . How very sad
I would say it's the public vilifying the police @areyoubeingserviced - I don't know why the police webcams aren't made public but after watching the Recent marches/ riots I don't think anyone was saying 'good evening Officer, ' to them.
if you can descend from your throne briefly and read the sky article above it might make the point that taking knives from people IS protecting the young lads.

KaptainKaveman · 11/08/2020 12:32

@R1R2

Out of area cars are frequently targeted its part of the crack down on county lines crime. Bet Butler thought all her Christmases had come at once

What on earth do you mean?

areyoubeingserviced · 11/08/2020 12:34

@MistressMounthaven- interesting article.
I have descended from throne to discover that you have missed the point of my post.
I would try to explain further, but I fear that it would probably be pointless

FaiIWorseAgain · 11/08/2020 13:27

It is almost mind boggling that a number of white posters have talked about being stopped by the police and use this argument to undermine Dawn Butler’s assertion that the incident was a racist incident.
I hope I am not included in that - I mentioned being pulled over only to support Dawn Butler's assertion that the situation was inflamed by another officer as I have had it happen to me recently and that the police on a power trip do not always have good reason for pulling people over. I believe it is highly likely that racial profiling took place when initially checking the registration plate in the first place.

SmileEachDay · 11/08/2020 13:51

It is almost mind boggling that a number of white posters have talked about being stopped by the police and use this argument to undermine Dawn Butler’s assertion that the incident was a racist incident

It really is.

MistressMounthaven · 11/08/2020 14:15

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

chomalungma · 11/08/2020 14:41

What percentage of successful stop and searches of black people would be enough for you to justify it. 10%20%. 1% resulting in a charge?

isathal · 11/08/2020 14:44

I didn't think Dawn Butler was stopped and searched ? Her mate's car was stopped but Dawn wasn't searched or has some new information come to light ?

MistressMounthaven · 11/08/2020 14:46

Well young lads are being killed - what's the price of a life?
But it doesn't seem to be fixing the problem - Dawn B is an MP - perhaps she can help fix what the mayor can't.

SimonJT · 11/08/2020 14:48

@MistressMounthaven

Well young lads are being killed - what's the price of a life? But it doesn't seem to be fixing the problem - Dawn B is an MP - perhaps she can help fix what the mayor can't.

How often would you personally like to be searched while going about your daily business? How many of those searches would you like to be legally carried out?

MistressMounthaven · 11/08/2020 14:50

Not at all - but are you wanting to stop the searches?

DGRossetti · 11/08/2020 14:52

@chomalungma

What percentage of successful stop and searches of black people would be enough for you to justify it. 10%20%. 1% resulting in a charge?

Surely the end justifies the means ?*

SimonJT · 11/08/2020 15:05

@MistressMounthaven

Not at all - but are you wanting to stop the searches?

Why don’t you want to be stopped and searched?

MistressMounthaven · 11/08/2020 15:07

The arguments go round in circles - my issue is the police getting the flak including from an MP who, of anybody, should be doing something about knife crime.
they are being put on the frontline and having to use stop and search in an attempt to solve a massive drug problem in cities. When the issues are poverty, low expectations, due to funding cuts, and drug taking amongst the middle classes. Oh and also police cutbacks so they are firefighting instead of having a long term policy including SS, schools etc - as was used in Glasgow to fix knife crime.
Why does DB and the Gov get away with doing nothing. (As far as I can see) - only the police carrying out a pretty pointless exercise long term get the blame. They don't make the rules the Gov does.

DGRossetti · 11/08/2020 15:15

my issue is the police getting the flak including from an MP who, of anybody, should be doing something about knife crime.

Well yes. But while the police were polishing their pens taking down all the details for this stop, there may as well have been a conga line of knife toting bad boys parading around behind them. If you are willing to excuse crap policing as a lot of people seem willing to do, then you really shouldn't go around being upset at the amount of crap policing.

They don't make the rules the Gov does.

now this undoubtably is true. And - as with a lot of issues that cause internecine discussion everybody should really hold them to account. Every minute, hour and day.

Balhammom · 12/08/2020 08:27

I’ve been stopped before too. I answered a few polite questions, thanked the officer for keeping us safe, and was on my way.

If you don’t permanently look for issues, and try not to believe that everyone is out to get you, life is so much easier!

SimonJT · 12/08/2020 08:42

@Balhammom

I’ve been stopped before too. I answered a few polite questions, thanked the officer for keeping us safe, and was on my way.

If you don’t permanently look for issues, and try not to believe that everyone is out to get you, life is so much easier!

How many times have you been stopped?

Mine count is well into double figures and not a single one of my stops has been legal. Is expecting police officers to abide by the law ‘looking for issues’?

chomalungma · 12/08/2020 08:55

Dawn Butler has written an article

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/11/black-mp-stopped-by-police-racial-profiling-black-people-arrests

As part of that:

"I would not usually comment on social media posts, made largely by anonymous, far-right racist accounts, but this issue is just so important that I feel the need to set the record straight. Some of the things people are saying online are nonsensical.

My friend, who was driving the car when we were stopped, is black. He is not mixed heritage, or even white as many rightwing trolls are saying online – he is a black male. Nor has the footage that I recorded been “flipped” – I was using my front-facing phone camera.
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This has not stopped an onslaught of messages calling me a liar. But even if my friend were white, which he’s not, it still would not account for why the police stopped us."

So if you are one of those people who said that 'her friend was white' or that she deliberately flipped the video, then you are part of the problem.

Balhammom · 12/08/2020 09:24

@SimonJT

I was stopped more often when I lived in a high crime area (Hackney). It goes with the territory and I’m quite grateful to the police for trying to stop crime (I don’t see why anyone who isn’t a criminal wouldn’t be).

As a lawyer, i can tell you that it is usually nearly impossible to say whether a stop was lawful or not without knowing the intelligence behind it. Why do you believe that the times you were stopped were unlawful? What powers did the police rely upon?

SimonJT · 12/08/2020 09:33

[quote Balhammom]@SimonJT

I was stopped more often when I lived in a high crime area (Hackney). It goes with the territory and I’m quite grateful to the police for trying to stop crime (I don’t see why anyone who isn’t a criminal wouldn’t be).

As a lawyer, i can tell you that it is usually nearly impossible to say whether a stop was lawful or not without knowing the intelligence behind it. Why do you believe that the times you were stopped were unlawful? What powers did the police rely upon?[/quote]
Its very easy to tell if a stop and search is lawful, police lying about their name, refusing to give their name, failing to actually record the search, attempting to forcibly remove my clothing (not jacket or gloves) in public places, being repeated racially abused, just a few examples.

ProfessorSlocombe · 12/08/2020 09:34

As a lawyer, i can tell you that it is usually nearly impossible to say whether a stop was lawful or not without knowing the intelligence behind it.

I prefer the word information. Intelligence has a very narrow meaning in the dictionary that police actions don't always fit within.

chomalungma · 12/08/2020 09:50

It goes with the territory and I’m quite grateful to the police for trying to stop crime (I don’t see why anyone who isn’t a criminal wouldn’t be

The "if you haven't got anything to hide, why would you be worried about the police stopping and searching you" comment.

BlooperReel · 12/08/2020 09:55

A friend of mine was stopped years ago in Hackney, at night, both white males, the windows were tinted, when he asked the police why they pulled him over they responded 'this is a nice car, how do you afford it?' he replied 'because I have a job'. They got really shirty, searched the car, found nothing, checked his licence etc, they asked again why they'd been pulled over as a nice car isnt a reason, the police mumbled and fumbled for a decent response, and the friend said 'it's because you thought we were black at first, isnt it?', the police didn't deny it.

DGRossetti · 12/08/2020 10:24

@chomalungma

It goes with the territory and I’m quite grateful to the police for trying to stop crime (I don’t see why anyone who isn’t a criminal wouldn’t be

The "if you haven't got anything to hide, why would you be worried about the police stopping and searching you" comment.

And so you start sliding towards the horror of the end justifying the means. "If it saves just one child ..." etc.