We could do worse than teaching our girls to say ‘fuck off’

[Redolent]

Perhaps not literally, but being socially agreeable and pleasing to others, afraid to disappoint people and let them down, is such a destructive trait that girls are unwittingly socialized into. It’s damaging both personally and professionally.

Speaking only for myself, it was until my late 20s that I learnt decisively and firmly how to say NO. No to social commitments that I had no desire for, to unreasonable work pressures, even to sexual expectations. Even now, it’s incredibly common for teenage girls to be in situations where they’re uncomfortable, but to not say no for fear of disappointing others.

Toddler DD has just started to say No. It’s an important moment. Not necessarily if she’s refusing to let me brush her teeth, but with other things - eg physical affection - I fully intend to respect her boundaries. Not that she even conceptualises it that way, but I’m hoping the message will stick that if she refuses to give a cuddle / kiss (or be given one) her word should be sacrosanct.

Would be good to get thoughts on how you teach young girls to have a firm resolve and to not be afraid to let others down.

I agree. Helen Mirren says one of her biggest regrets is not saying 'fuck off' more. My daughter(13) is a people pleaser and I'm already trying to get her to be firmer with friends expectations of her.

How does I learnt decisively and firmly how to say NO make the leap to your title?

I completely agree. I’m 31 and in a managerial role overlooking a team very diverse in age range. I find myself observing the young women, many are still in their teens, accept shitty behaviour from men both in the team and not. I speak to them often about speaking up when they are made to feel uncomfortable and how the consequences that follow are not the result of them speaking up but of the actions those men chose to make.

I call out and challenge that behaviour whenever I see it. I’m considered “difficult” for it, that’s fine. Anything that makes it difficult for an adult man make pervy comments about someone in their late teens is a win.

I have a daughter myself and I really hope the world has turned that little bit more by the time she is an adult.

One of my daughters is a people pleaser, same as MsVestibule and so many of her various friendship dramas could be easily resolved if she just said no more often. She's 8 so the dramas are small ones at the moment of the she-said-so-I-said variety but I try not to intervene too much because I want her to learn that it's okay to say no to people.

My other daughter gives zero fucks about anything and will let you know straight away if she's not happy about something. I'd like her to be a little less assertive!

Certainly with creepy men I wish I’d got the memo earlier than my 30s that it’s absolutely fine to tell a pervy guy who’s usually old enough to be your Dad “Fuck Off”.

If I’m ever lucky enough to have daughters of my own I will tell them they have my full permission. I was raised to be nice to creepy men. And that was pretty unforgivable and caused me all sorts of problems.

Yes. I had a mother who thought it was never ‘nice’ to say no, especially to a man, so as you can imagine, I had a lot of self-educating to do in my teens.

Hellen Mirren said in a Round Table Interview something along the lines of “if I ever had children, the first thing I’d teach a daughter of mine is the words ‘fuck off’”

I was a total people pleaser my whole life. Something snapped in my head when I got about 22/23 but because I’d never really learnt how to properly assert myself, my execution on standing up for myself was terrible. I was working in a hotel at the time and got a reputation for being rude and arrogant and I remember thinking how ironic it was because I’d been so meek most of my life before that. I just had no idea how to actually assert myself and stand my ground so I was way too aggressive, snappy and impatient in the way I spoke. I’ve managed to find a good balance now hahaha but it definitely it was a learning curve for sure. I’ve always said if I ever have a daughter I’ll do my very best to make sure she knows she has a voice that will be heard and noted.

I agree. I had a mild objection to the metoo campaign in that it focused purely on men. I felt there should have been a follow-up empowering women to speak up assertively and confidently.

"Please move away from me, you're making me uncomfortable"
"I think that's a very rude thing to say, I don't care to discuss it further and I don't need you to agree with me. Please just stop speaking to me now. Thank you. "

Personally I think women are getting worse at this stuff. I don't understand why women are coming home from nights out saying they are constantly being groped. My friend was groped the other night. She found the manager and told him. The punter was thrown out. She said she would take it further if be wasn't removed.

It can be hard. I think the best thing we can do is support each other as females.

Out with a group of old friend a while ago I didn't laugh at an extremely mysogynistic joke one of the guys made and shook my head (it was basically talkign about how repulsive women's bodies get as they approach forty - we are all in our forties including his wife). He got instantly angry when he saw me do it and asked when I'd lost my sense of humour as well as my insert joke reference here. I felt upset and under massive pressure to just laugh along but I shrugged and said "I don't find it funny, I'm not the one losing my temper". It was tense. The other females said to me afterwards they didn't find it funny either but they didn't want to 'make a thing about it'.

Totally agree!

DM is a people pleaser and firmly thinks I should be to. Is often very shocked when I say no!

Good for you @isthisnothing ! Really satisfying to read that bit about the 'joke'. Well done I bet it was hard to do.

YANBU

Girls are taught to endure with a smile. The ultimate stiff upper lip.
Can be useful, but they should also be taught to say fuck off (with or without a smile)
Saying no, and general assertiveness, are the most valuable skills I learnt in my adult life.
If I'd learnt them earlier, I would have been better able to avoid a number of rather unpleasant (or downright dangerous) situations and/or people.

Strongly agree.
I was pressured into something at 18 because I had never been allowed to have a choice or say no before I was an adult. It still negatively affects my life.
I have no problems now just saying "No thank you" to pretty much everything.

I just realised I missed out a huge chunk of what I meant to say in my previous post lol. I was working in a hotel with a god awful boss. I mean, to this day he’s easily one of the meanest, angriest and generally nasty people I’ve met. And nearly all the guys I worked with (mostly the chefs/kitchen hands) were incredibly condescending and mysoginisitc. But I didn’t handle certain situations at all well. I was trying to be authoritative and gain respect from them but instead I just got a bad rep for being snappy and argumentative hahah oops

@Isthisnothing

I agree. I had a mild objection to the metoo campaign in that it focused purely on men. I felt there should have been a follow-up empowering women to speak up assertively and confidently.

"Please move away from me, you're making me uncomfortable"
"I think that's a very rude thing to say, I don't care to discuss it further and I don't need you to agree with me. Please just stop speaking to me now. Thank you. "

Personally I think women are getting worse at this stuff. I don't understand why women are coming home from nights out saying they are constantly being groped. My friend was groped the other night. She found the manager and told him. The punter was thrown out. She said she would take it further if be wasn't removed.

It can be hard. I think the best thing we can do is support each other as females.

Out with a group of old friend a while ago I didn't laugh at an extremely mysogynistic joke one of the guys made and shook my head (it was basically talkign about how repulsive women's bodies get as they approach forty - we are all in our forties including his wife). He got instantly angry when he saw me do it and asked when I'd lost my sense of humour as well as my insert joke reference here. I felt upset and under massive pressure to just laugh along but I shrugged and said "I don't find it funny, I'm not the one losing my temper". It was tense. The other females said to me afterwards they didn't find it funny either but they didn't want to 'make a thing about it'.

Great stuff for speaking up in that situation. It’s also heartening to see you actually type those words out - sample sentences, if you will, about how to asset yourself in calm but decisive way. Sometimes you have to see it in written form before you have the courage to say it out loud.

I agree about the fact that progress on this front may not be as forthcoming as we’d wish. Recently I’ve been following MeToo instances unfold in a particular music scene, and there many many instances of women not saying ‘no’ in initially consensual sexual situations and following that with ‘I didn’t want to appear like a prude’ and ‘I wanted him to think I was cool’, etc. Obviously consent goes both ways and should always be elicited enthusiastically, but I feel like this is a huge part of it too.

The number of women on MN who put up with shitty behaviour because they ‘don’t like confrontation’ or are ‘people pleasers’ (when they simply lack assertiveness) is shocking. When they commit minor transgressions they ask if they’re ‘horrible’ or ‘bitches’ etc. Bad behaviour by a partner is justified because they are ‘no angel’ themselves. It’s all very depressing.

@CoRhona

How does I learnt decisively and firmly how to say NO make the leap to your title?

🙄

I was watching a news report about an awful assault a year or so ago and it really struck a chord with me.

The scenario was - a man and woman were working together and he locked them into the storeroom door 'for a joke'. She didn't like it but went along with it and well it ended how I described above as she couldn't get away when things took a nasty turn.

I'm not saying she could have done anything to stop it - the man was clearly a psychopath - but I got more upset the more I thought about it because most of us have done that - gone along with something which made us uncomfortable and for most of us it luckily did not end up like that.

I have a daughter and I will be raising her to stand up and roar
"I told you to open that door, open it immediately" So what if it turns out he was just having a joke and nothing bad was going to happen and heaven forbid he's a bit offended? Let it be a lesson to him.

I taught dd1 to say fuck off. When she started at high school a boy from her primary school became quite nasty to her. Kept calling her a bitch. This was a boy she had known since she was three. Horrible little bastard. I told her next time he said it to just tell him to fuck off. It worked. I don’t know whether it was her standing up to him or the swearing but apparently he didn’t do it anymore.

I wish she could tell her so-called friends to fuck off now, nasty little girls, they’re even worse.

Yes, you are SO right. I have spent my life apologising for things I haven't done. I'm glad your daughter is being taught express her feelings

@wearywithteens
Absolutely, less of the please and thank you. And a good loud voice that draws the attention of everyone in the vicinity.

You don’t need the niceties if a man is bothering you!!

No, but you don't need to resort to foul language in order to be assertive and stand up for yourself.

I am very lucky that both my parents taught me no at a very early age. I have no problem in saying it and TBH it has probably gotten me out of some very uncomfortable situations.

I am also teaching my son the same, but also to make sure he understands that when someone says no, it means no.

When my DDs ask in x situation should they go or not etc I ask them Do you want to do x or go y?

They usually say no. So I tell them to say no.

No excuses, no real reasons, just I don’t want to, or thanks for asking but no.

No doesn’t have to be rude.