We could do worse than teaching our girls to say ‘fuck off’

[Redolent]

Perhaps not literally, but being socially agreeable and pleasing to others, afraid to disappoint people and let them down, is such a destructive trait that girls are unwittingly socialized into. It’s damaging both personally and professionally.

Speaking only for myself, it was until my late 20s that I learnt decisively and firmly how to say NO. No to social commitments that I had no desire for, to unreasonable work pressures, even to sexual expectations. Even now, it’s incredibly common for teenage girls to be in situations where they’re uncomfortable, but to not say no for fear of disappointing others.

Toddler DD has just started to say No. It’s an important moment. Not necessarily if she’s refusing to let me brush her teeth, but with other things - eg physical affection - I fully intend to respect her boundaries. Not that she even conceptualises it that way, but I’m hoping the message will stick that if she refuses to give a cuddle / kiss (or be given one) her word should be sacrosanct.

Would be good to get thoughts on how you teach young girls to have a firm resolve and to not be afraid to let others down.

I actually remember the first time I told someone to fuck off. It was a flatmate who had made a point of befriending me then excluded me from things she was doing with other flatmates, but used to 'borrow' things she was too tight to buy herself and ask me to do things she was too lazy to do. She put on a pleading face to nag me into something that I'd already said a definite 'no' to and I just said 'Oh fuck off' and the change in her expression was wonderful.

It's useful to know how to be that assertive.

I was around 12 when men started pestering ; not strangers but middle aged men known to our family. So I told my mother expecting her to deal with them on my behalf. Instead, she said " Silly fools, men like that need putting in their place. Here's what to say/do next time" . Which I put to use and found it worked. Very empowering.

 Thanks to babysign class, .my  6 month old GD  learned to baby-sign NO  (and mean it)   long before she could speak.

I went to live with my parents when I was 10 and my Mum parented very differently to my Dad - my Mum was all about people-pleasing and being polite. My Dad was a little more "fuck them" and taught me to be a little bit bolshy and bold.

I've been told on here before that there's nothing good about being bolshy or bold, and how women shouldn't aim for either of those things (by other women, ironically) but I maintain that the best thing my Dad taught me was to prioritise my own comfort over other people's discomfort. So when men inevitably behaved like pricks, I've called it out. I have a reputation for not mincing my words - I am never unkind or spiteful but I'm direct and won't say yes unless I want to. Everyone should be able to say "nope, not happening" and let the story end there rather than try to appease people who wouldn't give a shit for your happiness.

One habit I do love is that I only attend events, weddings, christenings etc of people I really love. The whole "x at work invited me to her evening do, its 5000 miles away and costs thousands" doesn't happen - I just reply "Oh, we can't make it, have a perfect day" and wish them well. No guilt. We shouldn't feel guilt for having perfectly acceptable boundaries.

Agreed. Sounds like my DD is at the same stage as yours, I am very mindful of respecting her bodily autonomy and not training her to 'be nice' the way I was.

What worries me is when she is older and is around other children who have been brought up to model female compliance eg at school.

“My daughter(13) is a people pleaser and I'm already trying to get her to be firmer with friends expectations of her.”

Be sure she is encouraged to stand up to ‘authority figures’ as well - including you. So many parents want their kids to be ‘obedient’ over all else - it’s led to a disastrous lifetime for me but I’m very well liked 😢

Be sure she is encouraged to stand up to ‘authority figures’ as well - including you. So many parents want their kids to be ‘obedient’ over all else

Dh and I talk about this a lot. He's 10 years older than me, had a strict upbringing (which he hated and can see its faults) but is quite traditional as a result. 3yo dd is an incredibly feisty and strong willed child. She has given us and her cm some serious challenges because she simply will not budge on many occasions. It has caused dh and I a lot to consider about our parenting of her. While i find her persistence incredibly frustrating at times, I really try to work with her need for control without taming it out of her too much. Dh sees exactly where I'm coming from, and does love her defiance, but treads a careful line with her, knowing his own upbringing and traditional approach to parenting, and how it jars with both our thoughts on how to raise a confident and self assured woman who will stand her ground when needed. We also have a 9yo ds - so are very firm with him not 'expecting' or 'taking' kisses and cuddles from her. If she says no, she means it. He's had a few bruises for crossing boundaries and has learned equally valuable lessons about personal space - and we never chastise her for sticking up for herself if he's invaded her personal space. I can honestly say if she carries on as she is, the world is her oyster. The hardest challenge will be raising her to know the difference between business and assertiveness.

bossiness not business

I am 28 with 4 kids. I married very young and was very insecure and shy. I'm lucky my husband is a good man. However it has only just clicked in my head that I can say No. I know how stupid it sound but saying no used to fill me with nerves and anxiety. Not sure why. But now I have daughters I have realised I need to be more assertive. DH has found it both amusing and strange and a bit of a shock. Not that I ever need to be assertive with him. We are a team. We work well together. But when I'm with others. He said it's like watching a different person. I like it and vow to never go back to that shy, low self esteemed little gi any more. I was assertive with my sil the other day and she called me out on it! She said I don't think you meant to be rude the other day blah blah blah. I said I did! And I wasn't rude. I clearly said I didn't want xyz and you ignored me.

PS my daughter's are 3 and 1.5 and both say no very well. Even the 1.5 year old. She learnt this very quickly. This has made me more proud than any thing else. We come from a culture where women should be quiet and agree with men. We are starting to see a shift!

No, but you don't need to resort to foul language in order to be assertive and stand up for yourself

If someone is bothering you/harassing you, they lose the right to a polite response

I don't disagree, @Cadent, but that isn't what the OP was asking about. You are narrowing down the debate to a single situation

Ah yes the nice misunderstood menz are just being friendly

Though it seems from this, you have come on to the thread with your own agenda. I've been around a long long time, and, overwhelmingly find the vast majority of people are nice. Yup, even including the half of the population that are men.

'Women' are not 'people pleasers'.
'Some women' might be! But many men are too..it's not a war of the sexes!
This actually makes me froth when I read it on here constantly

This ^ 100% @GinWithRosie

I'm not a 'people pleaser', my (adult) dds aren't, my Mum wasn't. I don't see it in colleagues either, but we can let our opinion be known, raise difficult issues, etc, without swearing at people.

YANBU. I am working on my people pleasing tendencies. I wasn't born with them, but I think i honestly had been a bit worn down and lost my fuck off reflex, (yes, it's a thing, as science ).

I think it is so important to nurture this sense of autonomy in girls. My dd is 5 and her fuck off reflex is firing on all cylinders! I really don't want that to ever change.

My most enlightening experience was when I finally snapped in a bar at a drunk old man who was pestering me and my friends. I asked him to leave us alone, he refused. I told him I’d get the management, he laughed. I spoke to bar staff and explained the situation, fully expecting to be ignored, they kicked him out.
We were all astonished (it was about 20 years ago so very different times) we never expected him to be asked to leave.
Since then I’ve never been concerned about saying “fuck off” or a more appropriate version depending on the situation. It’s not always worked, but at least I know I’ve stood up for myself.

Totally agree. I’m very big on teaching my children to form their boundaries and commit to them. Children - especially in my 70s childhood - are taught to be polite to adults come what may and abuse flourishes in that climate.

My son (11) is actually the people pleaser in our family. He’s a lovely laid back fellow but this can lead to his needs being overlooked in favour of the needs of other more demanding people. I’m trying to teach him to be the squeaky wheel sometimes.

But confused by the "foul language" conversation tbh... I mean, nobody is saying it should go like:

School parent: oh hi HeyAsda, how are you? Just wondered if you would mind helping me with childcare next week?
Me: FUCK OFF!

It's about having firm boundaries and not being afraid to say no. I'm sure men do have these problems too btw, but I do think the tendency is more that women should be nice, #bekind, be pleasant. Men are encouraged to be brave, be competitive etc. That can be damaging too, but I think the people pleasing, being kept quiet and told to put up or shut up, is a more common problem for women.

Totally agree. I was in a situation where a man leant over me to check my bingo card and put his hand on my shoulder. I shimmied out from under and said something like 'a bit of distance please' what shocked me most was how surprised my friends were that I'd said anything.

@HeyAsdaIAintGonBeYourBitch

The title of the thread says exactly that

[quote BackforGood]@HeyAsdaIAintGonBeYourBitch

The title of the thread says exactly that[/quote]
I didn't take it literally! The op explains what she means and it isn't literally tell girls to say fuck off all the fucking time (oopsy ).

I'm not so sure. I was definitely more anxious about pleasing people when I was younger, but that's because the consequences of not doing so we're much more severe then. When you're older people don't mind as much if you disagree, there's more opportunities to avoid people and men leave you alone. I remember when I was young men could get it an obsessive rage if I didn't smile enough etc. That would never happen now.

Yes of course it's about boundaries not language, to be honest I am too old to worry about the word fuck on a thread on an adult forum.

@Langsdestiny

Yes of course it's about boundaries not language, to be honest I am too old to worry about the word fuck on a thread on an adult forum.

Exactly. I mean, if people object to swearing on here, they should give Netmums a go. It's banned there, I believe!

I don't swear in front of dcs, other parents, older relatives or friends who don't swear a lot. On MN I do and among close friends who are also partial to a good swear.

But I still don't think that was the point of the thread at all. The op makes her point quite clear. If all people can see is "oh no a naughty swear word, tut tut", then I think they are being quite obtuse.

I agree and we also need to teach boys to accept a no as a no. An expectation of some manners from boys (and men) would not go amiss, while we're telling girls to look out for themselves. In the past a girl saying 'no' has been shamed from all sides, and is sometimes used to justify men being violent.