We could do worse than teaching our girls to say ‘fuck off’

[Redolent]

Perhaps not literally, but being socially agreeable and pleasing to others, afraid to disappoint people and let them down, is such a destructive trait that girls are unwittingly socialized into. It’s damaging both personally and professionally.

Speaking only for myself, it was until my late 20s that I learnt decisively and firmly how to say NO. No to social commitments that I had no desire for, to unreasonable work pressures, even to sexual expectations. Even now, it’s incredibly common for teenage girls to be in situations where they’re uncomfortable, but to not say no for fear of disappointing others.

Toddler DD has just started to say No. It’s an important moment. Not necessarily if she’s refusing to let me brush her teeth, but with other things - eg physical affection - I fully intend to respect her boundaries. Not that she even conceptualises it that way, but I’m hoping the message will stick that if she refuses to give a cuddle / kiss (or be given one) her word should be sacrosanct.

Would be good to get thoughts on how you teach young girls to have a firm resolve and to not be afraid to let others down.

Not sure I can offer any suggestions, but agree with the OPs wish.

I think we do need to work at teaching girls assertiveness and boys consent. However... there is a safety element here. Men can be violent and unpredictable and there are times when “Fuck off” ends up with a woman being seriously hurt. I’m absolutely not victim blaming, it’s 100% the man’s fault, but you need to make a judgement call depending on the situation.

My friends and I joke that when we turned 30 we got a visit from “the fuck off fairy”. Ie that was the turning point in assertiveness for us, we felt much more able to stand up for ourselves in various situations. 30 for me was the age I cut contact with a family member.

As a manager though, I see a generational difference. The 30-something women I manage all struggle with confidence and assertiveness and I spend most of my time trying to coach them in both. The early 20-somethings have confidence and assertiveness in spades.

As a mother of boys, I see my responsibility in teaching them assertiveness over arrogance, reading situations and taking no for an answer.

YANBU. I’m still a people pleaser who struggles with No as a complete sentence, and I’m in my 40s.
Having said that, these are inherent personality traits that I’ve seen in one DD from an early age and resolutely not in the other. How to ‘unlearn’ this way of being?!
I wish I knew I’d have done it Myself!

I think the being polite, firm but making no excuses is a huge one. I have a childhood friend who does this so perfectly, has done from a very young age and she is an absolute joy to deal with. "Oh no, that night doesn't work for me. Shame. It sounds lovely." Or "oh no thank you very much for the invite but I've no interest in X, y, z. Enjoy."

You are never second guessing yourself with her. The other side of that is she is very considerate and flexible also. "Absolutely no problem" will be her stock response when someone turns her down or apologises for not being able to keep an engagement and she will mean it.

I have another friend from a similar age and there are always huge long-winded explanations, she never really believes or accepts if someone else declines an invite. It's exhausting. I know various times I've said no to something and she will persist with trying to talk me into it. We had a garden get together (we are not in the UK) and there was talk of going to someone's house when it got cool. I didn't want to for multiple reasons and said so from the beginning. She began the persuasion and I said after a while "I don't know why you are trying to change my mind. I'm not going to keep repeating myself."

People can find me very curt. I know that but the blabbering around stuff really does my nut.

'Women' are not 'people pleasers'.

'Some women' might be! But many men are too..it's not a war of the sexes!

This actually makes me froth when I read it on here constantly 🤦‍♀️

If that's you...fair enough, but don't assume with the 'women' and lump us all together...I actually know very few female 'people pleasers'. None of my colleagues...we are all pretty forthright women who take no shit off anyone! Both my daughters...obviously take after their bolshy mother!

The only three that instantly spring to mind are my mother, one of my cousins who is such a PP it drives me mad, and a TA in a school I worked in years ago who was so ineffective because of this the school ultimately had to put her on capability proceedings to try to support her. It didn't help and she left of her own volition.

Being a 'people pleaser' can seriously hold you back in life, as well as have disastrous consequences for your personal safety, as we know!

We need to ensure our daughters have the confidence and skills to be much stronger. That's our job and our gift to them. That's how we protect them in what is still a male dominated society 🤷‍♀️

@BlueBooby it doesn't sound silly or like nothing happened, it sounds scary. You did your part, you asserted yourself and he got aggressive. There really was nothing you could have done there and I think you did the right thing not getting into the ring with him as he could have been dangerous.

It sounds to me like you read the situation correctly.

Were there people about? The only thing I would suggest there is a loud "excuse me, can you help? This man is bothering me and getting aggressive. I've asked him to leave me alone."

BlueBooby - i dont think it backfired. Imagine if you had agreed to what that agressive arse was suggesting. People with good intent accept a no. It sounds very scary.

I massively embarrassed a friend on a night out when a random bloke told me to smile. I said "Why?" He mumbled something and left.
My friend kept going on about it.

I have two sons. "No means no" is going to be a key part of their education.

Once again we are putting the responsibility on women to ‘learn’ how to deal with men. How about teaching your sons not to be shit heads?

It's not either or. However much we teach our sons not to be shit heads, there will still be men who do turn out to be shit heads. In any case, teaching our daughters that they don't need to be passive people pleasers (towards anyone, not just men) just because they are female can surely only be a good thing.

My 14yo dd's massive confidence in childhood has been eroded a bit by teenage awkwardness, but she's quite prickly and thankfully seems to have zero tolerance for shit heads and misogynists (or for being made to feel she has to conform to male ideas of how a girl should dress or behave). Definitely no people pleaser. I'm proud of her - I was much more docile and people-pleasing as a teen.

@Redolent

Perhaps not literally, but being socially agreeable and pleasing to others, afraid to disappoint people and let them down, is such a destructive trait that girls are unwittingly socialized into. It’s damaging both personally and professionally.

Speaking only for myself, it was until my late 20s that I learnt decisively and firmly how to say NO. No to social commitments that I had no desire for, to unreasonable work pressures, even to sexual expectations. Even now, it’s incredibly common for teenage girls to be in situations where they’re uncomfortable, but to not say no for fear of disappointing others.

Toddler DD has just started to say No. It’s an important moment. Not necessarily if she’s refusing to let me brush her teeth, but with other things - eg physical affection - I fully intend to respect her boundaries. Not that she even conceptualises it that way, but I’m hoping the message will stick that if she refuses to give a cuddle / kiss (or be given one) her word should be sacrosanct.

Would be good to get thoughts on how you teach young girls to have a firm resolve and to not be afraid to let others down.

This is a great explanation!

I'm teaching my DD7 this and DS8 to actually listen to her. And vice versa. I enact it in my relationship with them too, although their father who has a condition that makes social interaction complicated usually doesn't. I don't back him up if, for example, he's tickling a kid, the kid asks him to stop and he carries on "because it's fun".

I think learning these things is more than just being told you can tell someone to fuck off, or say No. You often need practice and to know what it feels like when your boundaries are respected. If you are brought up with your emotional and physical boundaries being crossed, even in small ways (not talking about actual abuse, but things like tickling), you don't get that innate feeling of it being wrong when someone does cross them. What then happens is you're not sure if you should say no or not and that hesitation, even if it's small, can make a big difference in the dynamic. The people who cross boundaries pick up on those hesitations.

Yes to saying no!
Women and girls are not here to make everyone happy at their expense.

I have talked to my children from tiny about this. It helps to ask them “what would you do if some said please don’t, or I don’t like that?” They always say “I would stop”
Yes you would because that’s the nice polite thing to do. So when someone you ask to stop doesn’t stop...

And the kids realise the other person isn’t being nice or polite. So mine ask again more firmly, and if their no is still not accepted they don’t have to be nice anymore because the other person has shown that they aren’t.

Ask them if they would want someone to be uncomfortable or unhappy to make them happy. They are horrified. Then follow it up with saying if you wouldn’t like it, other people won’t so you should tell them.

That along with it isn’t fun, or a game if everyone isn’t enjoying it goes a long way.

Out with a group of old friend a while ago I didn't laugh at an extremely mysogynistic joke one of the guys made and shook my head (it was basically talkign about how repulsive women's bodies get as they approach forty - we are all in our forties including his wife).

Out for dinner with some couples a while back. One of the men started the, "Married for 25 years, if I'd killed her I'd have been out after 8 years" routines. It was a business dinner and I knew my husband wouldn't back me up but I pushed back quite firmly.

The man doubled down but I of course was the problem. However, I don't know how it was that I looked but the man's wife marched him off to the loos and apparently got him to throw up. He tried some form of a self-justifying apology afterwards but I wondered just how many times she'd done that for him.

"Please move away from me, you're making me uncomfortable"
Or just ‘Move - now!’ (With stern face)
"I think that's a very rude thing to say, I don't care to discuss it further and I don't need you to agree with me. Please just stop speaking to me now. Thank you. "
Or just ‘shut up now I’m not listening’
You don’t need the niceties if a man is bothering you!!

YY to this. You don't have to start with "fuck off" but you don't have to be overly polite to someone who is bothering you - why does impolite behaviour get a polite reply?
I start with "no" escalate to "fuck off" via "stop bothering me, i already said no" and it bothers me not one jot if people think i'm the rude one there.

How about turning it round. As pp said up there: teach boys to hear the first "no"

My eldest (12) is a people pleaser, drives me nuts. My youngest who is 9 haven’t even had to teach her this stuff she just is savage, she tells anyone and everyone no if she doesn’t want to. Takes no crap, she’s very headstrong, she had a rough entry i to this world, she’s old before her time, very wise child, good luck to her and god help anyone who crosses her

However much we teach our sons not to be shit heads, there will still be men who do turn out to be shit heads.

They have some role models sadly, such as Mr Johnson and possibly an as yet unnamed Tory MP.

I agree it must not just be women being learning it is often best to firmly say no. Teenage boys need education about consent and much more.

@EmbarrassingAdmissions his wife marched him to the toilets and made him throw up? I'm sure I'm being thick but I don't get it

Thank you @wagtailred and @Isthisnothing

I was on a turning just off from a busy high street, we were the only two on that street but were in eye shot of people on the high street. I don't think I would have said anything otherwise. When he turned aggressive I quickly walked off to the high street and tried to lose myself amongst crowds of people.

I will try and not see it as a failure. It did what I wanted, I just felt scared for a while. Maybe, just maybe, the man will think twice about his behaviour.

I've found this thread useful. I don't think it puts responsibility on girls/women for men's behaviour. I think it is important we teach girls that they can say no when someone oversteps the mark, and that doing so isn't rude. I used to worry about hurting the man's feelings. One thing I'm trying to programme into my brain is that when these men behave this way, they are not giving any consideration to my feelings so I should not worry about theirs. I want to make sure my daughter learns all of this.

A typo for "grow up" maybe?

One lesson I want to teach my daughters is that they are not responsible for anyone else's happiness, it is not their job to save or to fix someone. DH has had lifelong problems with depression and it will probably always be present, it is very well self-managed for the most part and then if it gets outside of his ability to self-manage he goes on anti-depressants and/or goes to therapy for however long it takes to get back into the self-management stage. Early on in our relationship we established a firm boundary that I will support him and I'll help him but that he primarily has to help himself and it is not my job to do it on his behalf. He knows that if he was to stop managing his depression then that is his choice but he can't stay here with me or the DC as I won't accept living with the effects of unmanaged/untreated mental illness.

I want my daughters to know too that there is a difference between someone being the love of your life and someone being your entire life, and that dependence and familiarity are not to be confused with love or happiness. DH is the love of my life but is not my entire life, I have friends and activities outside of our relationship, if we ever split up it would be an adjustment but I feel like I could manage. My own parents had an awful relationship with multiple break ups and reconciliations, co-dependence, emotional abuse, financial abuse. I'm close to my mother, I'm even in contact with my father, but sometimes I am angry that it was always excused by her as "well I'm just as bad" and "but I love him". I want my girls to know that love isn't always enough and practicality needs to be considered too.

his wife marched him to the toilets and made him throw up? I'm sure I'm being thick but I don't get it

I think it means he was drunk and this was a way of trying to sober him up?

his wife marched him to the toilets and made him throw up? I'm sure I'm being thick but I don't get it

I think it means he was drunk and this was a way of trying to sober him up?

He was falling down levels of drunk and increasingly belligerent. But he'd become more drunk and aggressive as no-one else was challenging his foul stories. As PP says, he got to the point where his wife got him to vomit as a way of sobering up and attempting some form of faux apology.

I'm coming back to the various people saying my previous responses to men are too polite - why should we say please or thank you when asking someone not to bother us?

I've given it a bit of thought because I definitely find for me that my approach is best for me (and obviously loads is to do with unique delivery, response etc).

I guess my feelings are -
If I started out with an aggressive response to behaviour a man has told himself is only him 'being friendly' or 'giving me a compliment' he can console himself that I'm an unreasonable cow.

I remember the first time I stated very clearly what was happening to me (i was sitting at a train station in the evening and a man sat down, asked me was I cold and said I had lovely legs. It stirred up a memory of a horrible experience i had as a teenager where i kept going along with a situation that was making me afraid. This time I turned around to the man and said "will you please sit on another bench, you are making me uncomfortable." He looked taken aback, apologised then stood up and moved. There was no argument and I felt great.

I think there is strength to naming what is actually happening and being very very clear. "It was lovely to meet you but I'm going to ask you to leave us to it now. We are on a girls night out and wanting to catch up. Enjoy your evening."

It does not always go smoothly. I've been told i'm the least attractive anyway and he wasn't hoping to get anywhere with me. In this case I've burst out laughing and said "well that devastates me. Now get the f away from this table before we call security"

And sometimes it is just safer to try to diffuse a situation instead of potentially further enraging someone. I was coming into my apartment complex when a man on the road yelled to hold the door open. I said no and told him to use his key card to get in if he lived there. He appeared into the empty foyer immediately after me very drunk and very angry calling me names saying i was paranoid and stuck up. I told him to move back. He looked even angrier and yelled what was i accusing him of now. I said "we are alone. I don't know you. you've been drinking. you are angry. you are scaring me. you are scaring me. move away. no further. move right back onto the stairs. I am getting the lift. you are not to come back down here. you are scaring me." I kept repeating it.

I m reading this with interest as one of those women who has always called this stuff out but am usually rounded on by other women saying 'don't be difficult'. Men will always play us off against each other if they can.

Trying to be polite about things is also too compliant with these guys - it isn't about the perfect clever phrase, it is as OP asserts sometimes necessary to be as clear and direct as F**k off.

@Redolent

Perhaps not literally, but being socially agreeable and pleasing to others, afraid to disappoint people and let them down, is such a destructive trait that girls are unwittingly socialized into. It’s damaging both personally and professionally.

Speaking only for myself, it was until my late 20s that I learnt decisively and firmly how to say NO. No to social commitments that I had no desire for, to unreasonable work pressures, even to sexual expectations. Even now, it’s incredibly common for teenage girls to be in situations where they’re uncomfortable, but to not say no for fear of disappointing others.

Toddler DD has just started to say No. It’s an important moment. Not necessarily if she’s refusing to let me brush her teeth, but with other things - eg physical affection - I fully intend to respect her boundaries. Not that she even conceptualises it that way, but I’m hoping the message will stick that if she refuses to give a cuddle / kiss (or be given one) her word should be sacrosanct.

Would be good to get thoughts on how you teach young girls to have a firm resolve and to not be afraid to let others down.

I wholeheartedly agree.

You see it on here all the time, people in bad situations wondering how to 'politely' ask someone to stop doing something abusive!

Politeness is not appropriate in all situations.

You're not armed for life if you can't say no and mean it.