We could do worse than teaching our girls to say ‘fuck off’

[Redolent]

Perhaps not literally, but being socially agreeable and pleasing to others, afraid to disappoint people and let them down, is such a destructive trait that girls are unwittingly socialized into. It’s damaging both personally and professionally.

Speaking only for myself, it was until my late 20s that I learnt decisively and firmly how to say NO. No to social commitments that I had no desire for, to unreasonable work pressures, even to sexual expectations. Even now, it’s incredibly common for teenage girls to be in situations where they’re uncomfortable, but to not say no for fear of disappointing others.

Toddler DD has just started to say No. It’s an important moment. Not necessarily if she’s refusing to let me brush her teeth, but with other things - eg physical affection - I fully intend to respect her boundaries. Not that she even conceptualises it that way, but I’m hoping the message will stick that if she refuses to give a cuddle / kiss (or be given one) her word should be sacrosanct.

Would be good to get thoughts on how you teach young girls to have a firm resolve and to not be afraid to let others down.

@Wearywithteens
Ok you don't need the niceties but also is there any benefit to being rude while staying clearly you won't tolerate what they are doing?

I've found my approach works for me because it doesn't invite an argument or even a response.

I wouldn't say shut up to a male colleague in a meeting for example as I think I would sound unprofessional. But I still think i am clearly telling them to shut up.

And all men aren't bad and aren't trying to intimidate you - they are just striking up a conversation at a train station. He might be sinister, he might not realise he's scaring you. By pointing it out, you're not giving him a pretense of pretending he thought you were enjoying the attention.

@BluebellsGreenbells

When my DDs ask in x situation should they go or not etc I ask them Do you want to do x or go y?

They usually say no. So I tell them to say no.

No excuses, no real reasons, just I don’t want to, or thanks for asking but no.

No doesn’t have to be rude.

Not giving excuses is a big part of it. I’m part of a WhatsApp group that arranges regular events, and ‘sorry I can’t make it tonight’ is always followed up by VERY belaboured, personal explanations that no needs to hear! It’s a habit, that little comma and explanation, but one we could do without.

And all men aren't bad and aren't trying to intimidate you - they are just striking up a conversation at a train station.

Ah yes the nice misunderstood menz are just being friendly

No, but you don't need to resort to foul language in order to be assertive and stand up for yourself.

If someone is bothering you/harassing you, they lose the right to a polite response.

Not giving excuses is a big part of it. I’m part of a WhatsApp group that arranges regular events, and ‘sorry I can’t make it tonight’ is always followed up by VERY belaboured, personal explanations that no needs to hear! It’s a habit, that little comma and explanation, but one we could do without

It's normally because you get asked a thousand questions. Example:
Pre covid, work night outs arranged a lot. I never want to go and so I say no thanks for asking.
Coworkers: Why not? You're not working the next day as it's a Friday night. Don't be boring. What else are you doing that night? Etc etc etc.
Me: I just don't want to go
Them: Why? etc etc etc.
If someone says they already have other plans/childcare/dogs birthday etc they get left alone.

Yesterday a man was bothering me for my phone number and after I'd said "no" politely a few times, he kept saying "why not?", so I said "please leave me alone now". I got a barrage of abuse from him for that. I was in a public place and got away from him, but I was scared. It sounds pathetic because nothing really happened, but I have been coaching myself to be more assertive and I feel like it backfired. I've had bad things happen to me before and I've been going to counselling and learning a lot about being assertive and having boundaries and so on. I've been feeling down since it happened. I bet he doesn't even remember me.

@FrodosRing

Not giving excuses is a big part of it. I’m part of a WhatsApp group that arranges regular events, and ‘sorry I can’t make it tonight’ is always followed up by VERY belaboured, personal explanations that no needs to hear! It’s a habit, that little comma and explanation, but one we could do without

It's normally because you get asked a thousand questions. Example:
Pre covid, work night outs arranged a lot. I never want to go and so I say no thanks for asking.
Coworkers: Why not? You're not working the next day as it's a Friday night. Don't be boring. What else are you doing that night? Etc etc etc.
Me: I just don't want to go
Them: Why? etc etc etc.
If someone says they already have other plans/childcare/dogs birthday etc they get left alone.

That sounds incredibly irritating! ‘I’ve got other plans’ sounds sufficiently vague and deterring to me.

I wish I could be more forthright. The other day a drunk bloke approached us and I’d have liked to tell him to fuck off, especially as he was breaking our bubble.

I also apologise way too much and feel guilty for issuing orders.

The problem is women want to be liked all the time. Our confidence seems to rest on it. So our fear of being perceived as unsympathetic is immense.

It would be so liberating to not give a fuck.

@BlueBooby

Yesterday a man was bothering me for my phone number and after I'd said "no" politely a few times, he kept saying "why not?", so I said "please leave me alone now". I got a barrage of abuse from him for that. I was in a public place and got away from him, but I was scared. It sounds pathetic because nothing really happened, but I have been coaching myself to be more assertive and I feel like it backfired. I've had bad things happen to me before and I've been going to counselling and learning a lot about being assertive and having boundaries and so on. I've been feeling down since it happened. I bet he doesn't even remember me.

Please don't feel bad. He was an arsehole. You were assertive; it wasn't your fault he didn't respect being told no.

My daughter was pretty much born with the ‘zero fucks’ attitude. I do teach her that there is a line between honesty and being hurtful and kindness where needed but I have never curtailed her. She speaks her mind and I’ve never allowed her not to follow her gut instinct as that’s something which I was taught to ignore. The old adage “children should be seen and not heard” was wrong on many levels.

@Cadent

And all men aren't bad and aren't trying to intimidate you - they are just striking up a conversation at a train station.

Ah yes the nice misunderstood menz are just being friendly

The thing is that the actually nice ones know when and where to start conversations with women. Busy station, woman is with her friends, smiling, he's sober, smile and say hi if you want. Woman is alone, deserted station platform, man drunk STAY THE FUCK AWAY. In fact, move further away.

I'm making a point of teaching this to my DD. All those men I was raised to be flattered by and be polite to when they insert themselves into your nights out with friends? They can fuck off.

You have to perfect the death stare too, which precedes the need to say fuck off

And all men aren't bad and aren't trying to intimidate you - they are just striking up a conversation at a train station

^^

Train station pick up? As a pp said, he can get to fuck

You're right. I wish I'd learned a lot earlier.

Let's also teach our boys to actively look for consent so it doesn't get to that. And if they do miss the signals, to promptly apologise and 'fuck off' when told to do so.

Many years ago, when I was in my early 20's I was working for a large, rather formal, company and attending an evening event on my own. We'd had a lovely drinks reception and dinner and were sitting at our tables whilst various people were making speeches and we were laughing at the after dinner jokes. Some of the jokes were risqué but within acceptable bounds until one (male) speaker made a pretty disgusting, misogynistic biological "joke" about a very well known public female figure. I had never heard someone be so vile and uncaring about the fact that this "joke" against a woman, with women of varying ages in the room was wildly inappropriate. It was in the vein of Trump's "locker room" type jokes now. Everywhere I looked people seemed to be braying with laughter, including, I'm sad to say, some of the women. I just couldn't. I felt personally, as a young woman, totally disrespected and a little humiliated. All these respectable looking people in their nice suits and dresses with their minds in the gutter. I got up and left for home a few minutes afterwards. But never a actually said a word. I wonder what I'd do or say now?

Oops!
I got up and left for home a few minutes afterwards before the evening ended and left them all to it.

I need to support my dd in this. She’s not a pleaser, she’s just quite quiet and passive and doesn’t realise what’s going on. Part of it is recognising when someone is not genuine- including female friends. My main concern is being assertive with men as she gets older.
However I do think the fact that men can become enraged when told to fuck off or when faced with a very assertive woman it can be safer to lie in some circumstances, in order to get out of a situation, or know how to get back up quickly, though I hate to say that. Being able to say fuck off is brilliant if you’re in a safe environment and can handle the aftermath.

I think the skill to say no to other women is just as important to be taught to young girls. In my mind, this isn't about unwanted male attention, this is all the other crap. Learning to say no to social events without feeling guilty, to not agreeing with a friend because you don't want to cause upset etc.

I am a total people pleaser and I tie myself in knots trying to organise my life to fit other people. My partner couldn't give less of a fuck about saying no to something but I feel I have somehow let that person down and feel terrible about it.

If I have a daughter, I will teach her it is okay to put yourself first.

Once again we are putting the responsibility on women to ‘learn’ how to deal with men.
How about teaching your sons not to be shit heads?

Absolutely this.

I do think a big problem is that we don’t teach girls how to say ‘no’ assertively in polite situations. This is where the boundary erosion begins, or the ‘people pleaser’ stuff happens.

I would have no problem telling someone who was being sleazy or threatening to fuck off, but it took me years to say no to something proposed by nice work colleagues or people you actually don’t want to offend. Even the amount of meals I have eaten that I didn’t actually like when I was younger 😂

I knew how to be ‘rude’ to that person who was a threat to me, and was trained to shout out in some way if a man was making me feel unsafe, but nobody taught me how to handle the joke, or how to say no without being rude when it isn’t necessary.

As an adult, this got annoying because I ended up not asking for favours or suggesting ideas to female friends and colleagues because I knew they would say yes even if it really didn’t suit them. So I ended up second guessing all these women in my life and had a ‘what the fuck are we are doing?!’ moment 😂

The piss takers were having a field day, and the fellow ‘I don’t mind’ crew were never getting to do what they actually wanted!

Then I met a woman who was the kindest, friendliest person and who was wonderful at saying no without offending or crawling about it. She would just say ‘oh no, I don’t fancy . I would rather do this. What about you?’ And she didn’t mind what your answer was.

So I have now taught my DD (6) since she could talk that she can say NO but to start with ‘no thank you, but thanks for offering’, ‘no, I’d really rather not, thanks’, ‘no thank you, I prefer the other one’ etc

It sounds silly, but I really needed some ‘set phrases’ and I think we should teach these first, whilst allowing girls to know that if someone keeps pushing past all of these, they aren’t listening to you. You can escalate your ‘set phrases’. Most polite, kind people will stop wayyyyy before ‘fuck off’, but as an adult, I shouldn’t be afraid of escalating if they do.

Quite the ramble, sorry! 😧