Elderly mother fibbing on car insurance

[Transitory73]

I think that I’m in the right, but would appreciate some insight.

(I’ve namechanged for this).

My mother is 86. She learned to drive in her fifties, and has had a car ever since. My father is still alive, and doesn’t drive.

I discovered today that when she renewed her car insurance earlier this year, she deliberately concealed a medical condition. She has been undergoing treatment for macular degeneration for a year.

She’s just acquired a new (to her) car, which arrives next week, and because she goes to pieces when she has to deal with any kind of call centre, I called up on her behalf to ask for her insurance to be adjusted. After I’d made the call, she said, “you didn’t mention my macular degeneration did you?”

I was furious with her. She thinks that everything is ok because she had an eye test at the optician earlier this year, after she’d renewed the insurance having failed to disclose her eye condition, and the optician pronounced her fit to drive.

I don’t know what to do. I’ve had it out with her today and explained to her that she has invalidated her car insurance by concealing her condition. If she crashes her car, no insurance but worse still, if she hits somebody else and injures or kills them, her insurance won’t cover them. I think that she’s committing fraud, as well as being selfish and irresponsible.

None of this cuts any ice with my mother: her response is, “stop going on about it” and when that fails, “you’re really upsetting me now and I can’t cope with the stress at my age”.

She’s worried that her car insurance will go up, but my view is that if you want to carry on driving in your eighties, you need to pay the appropriate car insurance premium. She can’t understand why her premium is almost £1,000 even without disclosing her eye condition. The answer, of course, is that old people have more accidents.

What would you do?

A: tell her that if she doesn’t call her insurers and disclose her condition, I will.

B: leave well alone, on the grounds that she is an adult who can make her own decisions and take her own risks.

(The problem with B, of course, is that it’s not just herself she is putting at risk).

She's a liar and will be a danger on the roads. If she's involved in an accident and they find out then her insurance would be invalid and she could be prosecuted. She's a selfish idiot in my opinion and is too old to be driving really.

Why are you downplaying this? Calling it “fibbing”, she’s LYING to her insurance company which is technically insurance fraud. If she hits someone in her car her insurance won’t cover it as she has lied about her medical condition. She could be in for a world of trouble here (a bit of a pickle- if you want to down play this too)

Last month in my home city of Edinburgh, there was a horrific accident where an 82yr old driver mounted the pavement and killed a little 3yr old boy. Obviously don't know the medical status of the driver but it raises the question of the health status of many elderly drivers.

If your DM is 'fibbing' and not disclosing vital details to the dvla, it suggests to me that she could possibly take risks when in the car and drive when not fully fit.

The repercussions don't bear thinking about.

I have a condition similar to macular degeneration. When I phoned the insurance company they asked if the Doctor had advised me not to drive. When I said that he hadn’t the insurance company said that was all they needed to know. No difference to my premium at all.

I have never learned to drive in part because I suffered from a condition for a couple of years that disqualified me from driving. I'm now in remission for it, but it came on without any known cause in the first place, and could reasonably happen again. I couldn't risk it.

Sounds like she’s got wet macular degeneration, which is treatable with injections. However as it’s both eyes it MUST be reported to the DVLA.

www.gov.uk/macular-degeneration-and-driving

Please A! My Nana did the same aged 85, except we only found out when she crashed her car. She also had macular degeneration and interpreted her opticians’ advice to suit herself. Insurance company wouldn’t cover her, she lost her license, and her car obviously, and was taken to court. Luckily no one was hurt, but it was a painful and expensive lesson.

She is actually breaking the law not notifying the DVLA of her condion if both eyes are effected. This in turn invalidated her insurance. Insurance companies are not allowed to ask about health conditions under the disability discrimination act . I have a DH who like many type I diabetics has eye issues. He renues his licence every 3 years and has to have an eye assessment as part of this. The insurance dont need to know. They only need to know hes not been advised not to drive and that he had a licence. I get really angry that over 70s dont have to do the same type of screening. Perhaps ask her if the eye clinic have advised her to declare it. You should make her aware that if they have the above issues of driving illegal with out insurance are more likely to see her loose her license than telling the DVLA. It could also be the least of her issues if she kills someone

An optician found her safe to drive earlier this year, so it is nit a question that she should not be on the road because of her eyesight.

It is a question of following regulations and having valid insurance, and that must be sorted out ASAP

Her insurance will cover a third party in the event of an incident. They have to by law under the road traffic act because they insure the vehicle. They might then come after your mum for the cost of the claim but she's been told by her optician she's fine to keep driving so that's doubtful whether they would because she's had her eyesight checked. Lots of scare mongering here. She does need to tell them and the dvla but if her optician has told her it's ok to drive i doubt the insurance company will actually care that much. They might just add a bit to the premium. They might not even do that.

she just needs to declare it thats all she has proof shes fit to drive-for now

I think people are getting over excited. If she meets the vision requirements, which presumably she does if optician says so, she doesn't need to tell anyone. There's a list on the DVLA website of conditions you do need to tell them about, this isn't one of them.

@BobbiBabbler

Her insurance will cover a third party in the event of an incident. They have to by law under the road traffic act because they insure the vehicle. They might then come after your mum for the cost of the claim but she's been told by her optician she's fine to keep driving so that's doubtful whether they would because she's had her eyesight checked. Lots of scare mongering here. She does need to tell them and the dvla but if her optician has told her it's ok to drive i doubt the insurance company will actually care that much. They might just add a bit to the premium. They might not even do that.

The first part of this isn't true. The insurer could (potentially) obtain a statutory declaration of a policy voidance which would leave them with no third party liability. The MIB would then pay any uninsured loss and seek a recovery, with the third party insurer going directly against the mum for subrogated losses.

The first part of this isn't true. The insurer could (potentially) obtain a statutory declaration of a policy voidance which would leave them with no third party liability.

Incorrect since 2015. The insurer can no longer use information which became known after the incident to avoid liability under article 75.

if she hits somebody else and injures or kills them, her insurance won’t cover them

Wrong. The law requires third party claims to be covered even if the insurance is deemed invalid for the insured party.

Thanks. Update (not good): tried to have the conversation with my mother on the phone last night (I don’t live in the same city as my parents, but I visit at keast once a fortnight and speak to them most days).

She wasn’t receptive at all, and started getting hysterical, first telling me that I was wrong about the obligation to inform the DVLA then launching into a self-pitying rant about how she “never asks me for anything” (not true) and how I’m a terrible daughter (also untrue).

I put the phone down on her in the end: she was abusive and incoherent. When she has calmed down, I will give her an ultimatum: either she informs the DVLA of her macular degeneration, or I will.

She has met the minimum visual standards for driving, as verified by the optician earlier this year, but she can’t wriggle out of informing the DVLA. She will have to have her eyes tested more often because of her condition, and rightly so. I don’t think she has even considered the consequences of driving without valid insurance: shuts down and starts shrieking insults whenever I raise it with her.

She hasn’t said anything about the ophthalmologist telling her to inform the DVLA, but even if she had been given that advice, I bet that my mother effectively stuck her fingers in her ears and said, “ha ha, that doesn’t apply to me because I’m special”.

All of this gives me concern that she’s not making rational decisions, which is troubling.

I feel for you OP, there is nothing worse than having to deal with a stubborn parent, whatever their age!

I had a similar issue with my DDad, in that he had to start injecting insulin for his Diabetes 2. Up until that point he didn’t need to advise the DVLA because he was tablet and diet controlled. When I told him this he point blank refused to tell them as he said ‘It’s my business, not theirs’, to which I corrected him and said it was very much their business! In the end I downloaded the appropriate form from the DVLA website, filled it in on his behalf and made him sign it before sending it off the same day. They acknowledged this and I informed his car insurers (who couldn’t care less) and his premiums have been unaffected.

I think you know what you have to do (inform the DVLA on her behalf) otherwise she is going to be storing up a whole heap of trouble for herself in the future, whether it be a fine, not being able to insure herself again or the worst case scenario of causing an accident and possible fatality. I do feel for you as it’s a difficult situation and possibly damaging to the relationship you have with your DMum, but in all honesty it’s the right thing to do all round.

Has she always been like this or do you think there may be some age related changes to her cognition?
Dementia has to be declared, too.
Is it worth a call or letter to her GP to express your concerns?

Never understood the 'I must keep my freedom to drive a lethal weapon and kill innocent people because it's annoying to phone a taxi' thinking.

Maybe you’ll understand when it’s you @Bluetrews25.

Driving is symbolic of a lot of things in life. It means independence, choice and freedom. That’s why older people have difficulty coming to terms with having to stop doing it.

I’m not defending them and I had to have several very difficult conversations with my dad about it but I do understand why it’s hard. It’s not just about driving per se, part of it’s the reversal of the parent/child relationship - it can’t be easy when your kids start telling you what you can and can’t do.

All of this gives me concern that she’s not making rational decisions, which is troubling.

Oh give over. The poor woman is facing losing a massive part of her independence perhaps for the rest of her life and rather than sympathising you’re speculating it’s dementia.

I didn’t mention dementia.

If she can’t deal with thinking about her legal obligations and the ramifications of driving with invalid insurance without becoming over-emotional and insulting, it doesn’t bode well for making rational choices behind the wheel if something happened.

@Transitory73

I didn’t mention dementia.

If she can’t deal with thinking about her legal obligations and the ramifications of driving with invalid insurance without becoming over-emotional and insulting, it doesn’t bode well for making rational choices behind the wheel if something happened.

Of course it does. That’s a massive false equivalence. And I suspect you know it is.

I work in car insurance. The only question we ask is if someone is currently declared unfit to drive by the dvla or been advised not to drive by a doctor.
The optician said she was ok to drive. She will need to inform the dvla as it is a notifiable condition but they are highly unlikely to revoke her licence if the optician has said her vision is enough to legally drive.
The getting hysterical thing and not being able to cope with phone calls or conversations is more worrying then her vision.

I wouldn’t be concerned about the hysteria from an impairment point of view.
It sounds likely that DM is scared she will lose her independence and using anger and insults to try and deflect you from your cause.
Tactical and calculated, in fact the very epitome of rational thinking. Sneaky and horrible though, I’m sorry you are having to go through this. Keep strong!