To offer some grammar tips to anyone who might want them?

[UnaCorda]

I sincerely hope this doesn't come across as either rude or patronising - it genuinely isn't meant to. It's also not intended as a pedants' thread.

I just thought it might be useful to list a few common mistakes, with an explanation, so that anyone who isn't very confident with their written English might be able to correct errors which, for example, could perhaps count against them in a job application or when used in a professional context.

I'll start with three:

1. "Your" shows that what you're referring to (probably a person or object) belongs to whoever "you" is in the sentence; for example, "Your brother showed me your book". If you mean "you are" you need to write "you're".

2. "Non" is not a word on its own - it is negating something, such as in "non-stick" or "non-committal". ("None-stick" would be incorrect, as would "non of them".) "None" means there aren't any. "How many cakes are left?" "Sorry - none." Or, "How many of the children finished the test?" "None of them."

3. "Alot" is not a word and the same goes for "abit", "infront", "incase" and "inbetween". Instead use "a lot", etc., just like "a little".

Hope I haven't made any mistakes myself...

Seriously Cheetas, you think that should form the basis of the criteria for University entrance?

For all courses?

Medicine? Philosophy? Economics? Software Engineering? Geology?

@Dances

Seriously Cheetas, you think that should form the basis of the criteria for University entrance?

For all courses?

Medicine? Philosophy? Economics? Software Engineering? Geology?

It is such an easy rule to learn. I genuinely do not believe that someone who lacks the capacity to understand it could reach the required standard in any other subject. Sorry.

It is such an easy rule to learn. I genuinely do not believe that someone who lacks the capacity to understand it could reach the required standard in any other subject. Sorry.

Nothing to be sorry about - but you are wrong. You can genuinely believe it all you like. I teach English Lit and History at university; I have come across excellent students who make grammar mistakes. I've never seen someone write 'I seen' or 'I done,' but plenty of people would say those in a supervision because it's part of their habitual dialect speech. I have seen students make written grammar errors, often. Sometimes because they haven't yet learned the rules (but have the capacity to do so), and sometimes because they struggle with grammar. One of my colleagues, who is very brilliant, makes regular apostrophe errors when she isn't concentrating.

I know academics in less essay-based subjects who do have seriously dodgy grammar, too. It's really nothing to do with how good a scientist you can be, for example, or how good an engineer (engineering has a notoriously high proportion of dyslexics, who often struggle to remember grammar rules even if they've been told those rules repeatedly).

We’re not talking general “dodgy grammar” here, or apostrophes.

We are talking not knowing that “I seen” or “I done” are the incorrect past tense of two of the most common verbs in English. Preschool children can learn this if they are taught. If you read any written English about any subject whatsoever you will notice that these expressions are not used. Teachers will teach it throughout school so if it doesn’t sink in for you there is no way that you could be university standard.

But as you say, people do not write it so the answer is that they do know full well what the rules are and would not have made the mistake in their written exams so that answers my question as to how they got in, doesn’t it?

Cheetas
So can you understand Calculus and various theories on motion?

I have had to peer review a wide range of technologies and disciplines for bid submissions over the years, and often the most gifted engineers cannot string a sentence together. So a peer reviewer's job is to collaborate with them to rewrite the solution for a business audience.

From your point of view, they would not have passed muster at UCAS.

If your view had been the adopted, we would not now be likely to be communicating online via complex security protocols and digital handshakes, none of which I'm sure you neither know nor care about, which is fine, but you get to pass public judgement about 'seeners and doners'.

The difference between less and fewer should be added too.

@elenacampana

Ex English teacher and grammar specialist here... in my professional opinion I’d say keep your grammar tips to yourself.

Mumsnet is not a classroom and you are not here to teach anyone.

It was offered in a friendly and helpful way: to answer people's questions, not criticise any mistakes.

You clearly already know it all so don't need help. Other people might find it very helpful and kind of the OP to take the time to answer their questions.

I am finding it very interesting.

Dances that was a very kind thing to do for your DN because she will.come across horrendous snobs like Cheetah who will judge her because her speech reveals her working class upbringing.

Your examples from your experience are a sucker punch to all those snobs.

I seen/ I done is classic west coast of Scotland. People are brought up speaking like this and know no different/ cannot change their hard wiring because an Emglish teacher teaches it or corrects them now and again. Don't get me wrong, it rips ma knittin' (another Scottish expression snobs will sneer at) and I'll explain why it's wrong, if asked, but I don't judge people for it or say they're not university material! FFS! By that standard my wonderful, clever, highly technical husband would never have crossed the threshold as he still.struggles with these words despite asking constantly what the rules are.

I would be very very surprised if any of the people to whom you refer, Dances (unless non-native English speakers) did not know that it was “I saw” not “I seen” or “I did” not “I done”. They could have that level of understanding yet still have generally poor written English and struggle to explain complex concepts clearly.

I don’t understand what relevance my ability in maths and physics has to do with anything?

Oh and he was brought up working class, as was I. Does that offend you too, Cheetah.

Ps just learned bated/baited on this thread. Of COURSE it's bated (as in abated)! Why, oh why, have I never realised before!

Be surprised Cheetah because it depends where and how they've been raised. Please stay away from Scotland, you would combust with the everyday mix of English/ Scots/ Gaelic/ Doric and huge helping of regional variance.

Oh come on, there are no complex rules for your husband to learn @Puffalicious! Up to him if he wants to keep speaking that way but you’re doing him a disservice by saying that he is not intellectually capable of understanding the correct past tense of the verb “to do”.

@CheetasOnFajitas, you’re assuming that the grammatical rules of standard written English apply to regional dialects in a colloquial register. Most people are pretty adept at code switching depending on their context. Just because some uses the dialect form ‘I seen’ in colloquial speech does not necessarily mean that they would use it in written standard English.

I don't personally follow why 'I seen' or 'I done' would be worse than an incorrect apostrophe. But perhaps that is beside the point. As I say, plenty of people in non-essay based subjects could and would make precisely these kinds of errors in writing. I tend to think it is more because they slip up and don't notice, than because they genuinely don't know the correct version, but I wouldn't imagine it's impossible there's the odd university student who genuinely needs to be (re) taught the standard past tense there.

Why should it matter? It's inconvenient for a student to need proof reading help, but these days it is increasingly often something that can be sorted out quite easily, especially once you get to postgrad, where it may even be included as a reasonable adjustment for a SpLD (if that's the reason why the student struggles).

I am Scottish. I told you that upthread when you asked about “where” and “wear”.

FWIW, my DP, who has a university degree, speaks and writes non-standard English. 'I seen' and 'I done' aren't part of her dialect, but she does say 'I've et' or 'I've took'. Her written English generally needs proofing. No one she's worked with has ever had an issue with it, and for quite some time she was working in a university lab, where you might expect people would be snobby (they were not).

[quote Zhampagne]@CheetasOnFajitas, you’re assuming that the grammatical rules of standard written English apply to regional dialects in a colloquial register. Most people are pretty adept at code switching depending on their context. Just because some uses the dialect form ‘I seen’ in colloquial speech does not necessarily mean that they would use it in written standard English.[/quote]
I said exactly that several posts ago.

I agree, that is the consistent grammar in my bf's circle. How could he speak any differently. His grammar is not inherently worse than mine. We are both products of what we heard around us growing up. People who speak well with no grammar errors are not superior, they just didn't hear errors.

Then you would be 'very very surprised ' Cheetas

I'm wondering if the the idea of lifelong learning is part of your life strategies if judging the inadequacies of other people's education fills that gap?

@L8Bloomer

I agree, that is the consistent grammar in my bf's circle. How could he speak any differently. His grammar is not inherently worse than mine. We are both products of what we heard around us growing up. People who speak well with no grammar errors are not superior, they just didn't hear errors.

What about books, television etc? We don’t only hear the colloquial speech of those in our local environment when we are growing up.

OP, I got caught in a grammar debate between two family members yesterday. The DH talking about recruitment said,”Google do graduate schemes’, DW corrected him and said, ‘its Google does’. Argument ensues. Who was right? (I thought they both sounded correct but felt ‘do’ wS the right ones as Google is a single entity).

You are incredibly rude Cheetas. My husband does not 'choose' to get it wrong, it is exactly as Bloomer says, he grew up hearing the incorrect grammar every day, so after 37 years (when he met me) it was hard-wired. He works in an industry where noone gives two hoots about your grammar (rightly so since his abilities lie elsewhere) so had never had anyone point it out (I imagine it would be incredibly rude to do so unless invited to).

Despite being working class he has more 'class' than I imagine you'll ever have; you've not shown any understanding on this thread.

I had forgotten what poster you were. I suppose life must be very difficult for you in broader society in Scotland, as outside of your grammatically perfect bubble there's a huge world of moving and changing colourful, mixed language.

@Dances

Then you would be 'very very surprised ' Cheetas

I'm wondering if the the idea of lifelong learning is part of your life strategies if judging the inadequacies of other people's education fills that gap?

I’ve read your last sentence three or four times now and I can’t make head nor tail of what you are trying to say.

I was only making the simple observation that learning the past tense of “see” and “do” is not very hard. (And completely separate from getting into the habit of using those correct tenses Or being adept at code-switching). I wasn’t passing judgment on anyone’s education, or social class, I was commenting on what an inability to retain information about how a common verb works says about a person’s overall capacity for learning. My point, from the very beginning, was that the “seeners and doners” you mentioned most likely knew exactly what was correct otherwise they would not have been at University in the first place.

I had forgotten what poster you were. I suppose life must be very difficult for you in broader society in Scotland, as outside of your grammatically perfect bubble there's a huge world of moving and changing colourful, mixed language.

Oh don’t worry, I left 25 years ago. Moved to London where everyone speaks like Her Majesty .

@Shimy companies are singular entities so it is Google is not Google are etc.

However, neither of the options you gave are expressed particularly well. It would be more correct/formal to say something like Google offers graduate schemes.