Neighbour in our garden, WWYD?

[Biscoffscoff]

First of all, apologies now for lack of diagram, I have no idea how to upload one! And sorry it's a long one, it's hard to explain...

We live in an area of old miners cottages. It's common in our town for shared gardens, or gardens with rights of way across them (which these days are used for putting wheelie bins out). We bought our house two years ago. Having a private garden was a big plus for this house we chose, or so we thought!

We are in a row of 8 or so terrace houses. Ours, and the houses to the right of us, have longer gardens and parking access at the back to garages that are at the bottom of the gardens. This is via a small lane. The lane originally led to a park. One of our neighbors told us that there was a lot of anti social behaviour with the park/lane opening onto the gardens. So at some point the park land was fenced off and it was agreed the lane could be gated, so those of us that have garages have a key. All our neighbours have lived here since before the land was fenced.

The neighbour on the left of us doesn't have a garage, and his garden is shorter than ours, he backs onto the park. He used to be able to access his back garden from the end of the lane/start of the park. There is a gate in his garden because of this. When it was fenced, the access from the lane ends at the end of our garden. The neighbours gate opens into our garden.

The previous owner of our house was an elderly woman who didnt mind the neighbour cutting across her garden when the fencing went up. Her son was quite savvy and keen for this not to become a right, so he got a solicitor to draw up a licence agreement which ensured it was goodwill only.

When we bought the house this was explained to us by the EA and owners son. The son told us he'd explained to the neighbour the access ended with the sale, and he'd have to approach us if he wanted it renewed. He never did, we never met him, we thought that was that. Not long after we moved in, the other neighbours approached us about putting money in to replace the gate to the lane also, and that gate is locked. We assumed that there was no access for the neighbour.

In lockdown we've been working from home, and in the first few weeks noticed from the window a couple of times someone walking through our garden. We spoke to the neighbour who had arranged the replacement gate and they told us yes, they'd given a key to the neighbour next to us as he's always had access and presumed he needed a key. They were very apologetic as they thought we knew he had access.

In normal circs we would have knocked on to speak to him but as we don't know him at all and this was at the point of lockdown where everyone was very jittery, didn't think it was a good idea to go round.

The old lady didn't use the garden much and we've been using it a lot in lockdown. We hadn't seen him in the garden for a while and thought he must have stopped using it, now that it's very obviously in use (garden furniture out etc)

Today I came in through the garden and found the neighbour in the garden. Not only in the garden, but cutting the hedge - OUR hedge - that runs from the gate across the back of our garden! Presumably he's doing this to keep his access clear!

I would love to be one of those people who blurt things out but I'm not. I was walking through with my heavy shopping and he gave me a cheery wave as though this was entirely normal.
I stopped and stuttered something about how I had been planning to wait until the autumn because of nesting birds. He told me he'd checked them and it was no trouble because he's retired. I walked in the house and unfortunately it was only then that my brain caught up with a WTF!

So not only does he clearly think this is the norm for him to be in our garden, he thinks he's doing me a favour by doing my gardening!

It's really frustrating that because we're out at work so much we had no idea that he was using this access for the first eighteen months we've lived here, and clearly he and the other neighbours (they are friends) think this is entirely normal.

I want to reclaim my garden back but with it being so long and with me making small talk with him I've no idea how to go about this.
Im also aware that if it hadnt been for lockdown we wouldn't have known he was doing this so part of me feels like I'm being a bit petty to say no now, when it's been happening without bothering us before, and will likely be the same again when I'm back in work in September.
But equally I don't want to give up having a private garden due to British politeness.

WWYD?

It was just that I liked my private garden as I've never had one before and finding the neighbour in it when I walked through, burst my bubble somewhat!

When you said the above i can picture me being in my kitchen seeing someone as you describe and i'd have had absolute palpitations to be honest! We are all different creatures and although i'm not surprised that lots of posters would be able to live and let live ect ect with your situation i most certainly could not. I would have to act asap.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing (i lived in the 4 cottage with access across the back thing which i described upthread) but we have to learn by our mistakes. Although we lived ok in the above property, and it was a good buy at the time, I would never ever buy a property again with a deed of access for neighbors or any type of gateways leading from other properties onto mine still in place. If it was my absolute dream house once cast iron paperwork was in place the previous access point would be removed on the first morning tbh. I didn't know how much the access thing bothered me until i moved to a house with no such complication.

Would i try and use an excuse such as dogs/geese/kids/ponds? Well i think it's best not to. I'd be very tempted to make the convo. easier but in the long run it's better to be straight up and say you'd like the garden boundary intact now and sadly have to 'ask' him not to come through any more. Then i'd nail the gate shut. Then (in a few months) wait till you see him and tell him you're removing the gate and ask if he paid for it and if so what he wants done with it. ie give it back to him.

Good luck. Let us know how you get on?

I agree with Porridgeoat just do it all with a kind demeanor and stick to your guns with a smile as if it's the most natural request in the world. You can collapse with relief when you're back in your house

I'm sorry, we've moved onto keeping livestock and moving sheds to avoid a pleasant normal conversation with a neighbour, now??

Some of these suggestions are bonkers! Go and have a normal chat with a smile on your face. You've lived there 18 months without even introducing yourself for goodness sake, go change that.

@XingMing have you heard of the definitive map and the deadline 2025? If you want to protect and preserve commonly and historically used rights of way you can do so but you will need to spend some time and effort doing so before a deadline that is looming closer now. Have a look into it, I know more about bridleways than footpaths but I'm sure there will be educational and support groups out there.

I can understand landowners' concerns about health and safety. They are liable for any injuries on their property deemed their fault on their land, and some people do utterly bonkers things. There are a lot of costs and liabilities for maintaining a PROW and not really any benefits.

Link to Guardian definitive map and deadline
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/feb/11/walkers-urged-to-help-save-historic-footpaths-before-2026-deadline

@SoupDragon yes, I can see the lane doesn't reach their gardens, but if they had a gate that opened into the park, walked the very short walk through the park to a gate at the end of the lane, then they wouldn't need to travel through OPs yard. I assume the park is open to everyone.

[quote k1233]@SoupDragon yes, I can see the lane doesn't reach their gardens, but if they had a gate that opened into the park, walked the very short walk through the park to a gate at the end of the lane, then they wouldn't need to travel through OPs yard. I assume the park is open to everyone.[/quote]
The fence around the park appears to belong to the council. They would need Permian from the council plus create a right of access to the park.

First - it’s weird that you live next door and don’t know his name. Introduce yourself and find out. Then tell him you were surprised to see him back there pruning your hedge and you didn’t know he’d been using your garden because he did not renew his license.

Ultimately, I’d have trouble telling him he couldn’t use it since it’s a shortcut to the lane and to town and likely to his parking. I personally would let him continue but I wouldn’t want him doing the gardening.

But there's a sudden rash of private signs as (WEALTHY) incomers try to prevent and delete public footpaths. One walk I do occasionally is graduallly being restricted, although it was once a miners road, and the only way for miners to walk to work. Suddenly the estate manager has decided that it's a healthy and safety risk? Despite no accidents or incidents or new hazards in the 30 years I have walked there. I walk it regularly, just to be awkward

Good! You might want to have a chat with the Rights of Way officer at the council (county council, if you're not in a unitary authority).

Where I live, on the edge of a small town, there are 3 fields that were always open, just grass, with a bridleway and 2 public footpaths running through them. Local people have always walked in the fields, kids play in them etc. All of a sudden, fences appeared overnight and enclosed all but the public rights of way.

Understandably, people were very pissed off, especially as there were rumours that the owner was applying for planning permission to build houses on the land. A local resident and keen rambler, who knew his stuff, got on to the county council, the RoW officer got involved, and loads of people gave statements saying that they had had unhindered access to the land for X years (over 60 years, in one case).

The amount of evidence gathered was massive, the files filled a large table. The landowner initially wanted to challenge it, but when his solicitor saw the amount and quality of the evidence, the landowner gave up. The land became effectively worthless: it couldn't be fenced, so useless for grazing, or planted, as people had the right to walk all over it, or built on, and it was bought by a group of organisations and is now held in a perpetual trust for "the enjoyment of the people of Mytown".

Which has increased the value of properties here because we'll always be on the edge of open countryside.

TLDR: if you keep walking the footpaths for long enough, they won't be able to stop you.

If if it’s a park at the end of the gardens, why can’t he go out the end of his garden and through the park?

@Davros

Be careful putting anything in writing as you will have to disclose any disputes when you come to sell

Absolutely this. If you fall out with him OP, you may struggle to sell your house if you ever want to move in the future. If you can keep it friendly, life be will so much less stressful. I’m telling myself this continually after having new neighbours move in who are being an absolute pain in the neck.

I would tell him he’s welcome to use the access but not while you’re in the garden (seems very friendly and very reasonable). Then give him warnings if he uses it while you’re there and escalate it that way. Better to phase out the access slowly than tell him now he isn’t allowed. Obviously legally you can stop access but you want to seem reasonable and get on with your neighbours as well.

Don’t put anything at all in writing as you’ll get into a legal tangle. The previous owner has protected you legally, don’t undo his hard work!

You've been living there 18 months and barely know your neighbour? I'd say that friendly relationships with people who live next door are top of the priority list. I would sit down with him and explain why you were shocked and your understanding. Then see if the access ending after a gazillion years would really impact his lift negatively. As he gets older will the cut through to the shops make a difference to him? As you are usually at work and don't notice how does it hurt you? You can easily end access when he moves eventually.

We had great neighbors and had a lot of give and take. Then they moved and numpties moved next door. I'd give the the old neighbors not only the key to a gate but to my house if we could get them back!

This is tricky, he’s doing no harm but you don’t want him to claim easement when it comes to sell the property. You could avoid the issue and put a third locked gate between your garden and the lane? Then he’d have no reason to use it as a short cut.

Do you have dc? I would probably just lock his gate, put a third gate up and say you want the garden childproofed after all I’m sure he wouldn’t want your children to escape into his garden?

Some of these suggestions are bonkers! Go and have a normal chat with a smile on your face. You've lived there 18 months without even introducing yourself for goodness sake, go change that.

What immediately jumped to mind for me is that there was a man on the op's property without their permission. Chopping away at their hedge without their permission. Yet he didn't stop what he was doing and say 'Hello, you don't know me but my name is XXX and I wonder if I can keep going across your garden as I did with the previous owner. Also, would you like and/or would it be ok for me to keep cutting your bushes as I did it for the previous owner.

Op doesn't need to pop next door for the neighbour to introduce himself. He was in her garden working away on his own volition without any attempt to introduce himself or justify himself. That I find odd.

Also, of course the other neighbours don't give two hoots about the op's garden being accessed by another house. Indeed it costs them nothing to be benevolent about it. It doesn't affect them at all: it is not happening in their backyards. If you suggested they all install gates to allow access through their gardens, you'd probably find they suddenly aren't quite so magnanimous when it involves their own property and privacy.

Yes , why not do what a previous poster said?

Put a fence and gate at the end of your garden next to the garage/lane to make your garden secure. And make sure it has a lock that he doesn't have a key to. Then he simply can't use the end of your garden as a short cut

He’s never even cut through it when you’re there and it would take seconds, personally I can’t imagine getting my arse in my hands about this, although I guess you need to do you.

He seems nice and polite, so the advice to swear or tell him to get stuffed and jog on is really silly.
Be polite too but just stand your ground also

I totally understand where you're coming from as I have a similar situation here, live in a row of terrace houses, some of which belonged to one family, there are small gardens behind, and there was a large piece of ground with a public ROW behind all the houses. The piece of land runs behind the other terraces and I own the half which runs behind the other houses. But there is a disputed ROW that runs immediately behind the house for the ones I live in which extended to the ones beyond me. Think 18thcentury. However the family extended the terraces in the early 20thC and the ROW was suspended and in fact was built on. It was never reinstated but the owner of one of the other houses insists there is a right of access. However as the houses were in the same family ownership until the end of the 20th century there were no gates so you could walk through. There are now gates. My ndn has secured the gate from the property the other side of him and blocked the path before my gate, and I"m quite happy with this. We're just letting it be difficult to access, and it hasn't been accessed for 4 years or so.

I do use the public ROW to collect my ndn's dog who before lockdown spent most days with me. They have free range ducks, chickens as well as cats wandering round. They come into my garden as well.

In your situation I see you have a garage and a space which doesn't appear to be fenced off, what I would do is to fit a gate across that and lock it. Then wait for your ndn to approach you at which time you can show him the paperwork and say you hadn't realised he had been using your garden as his licence ended when the house was sold and a new one wasn't issued as you want your garden to be private

Personally for us, it wouldn’t work as we have children and a dog so couldn’t have someone in and out our garden as and when they pleased.

I would ask him to stop seeing as the license expired when the previous owner sold; obviously nicely as possible. He may think you aren’t aware the licence ended and is being cheeky.

I am not sure it will be such a ‘pleasant, normal’ conversation as some are suggesting. He is being quite rude and relying on a certain status quo. I suspect he’ll wrong-foot you one way or the other in a discussion, and the only way to stop that is by making it physically impossible, without discussion, to get into your garden. If he complains about that, then you just tell him there isn’t a right of way.

I think this is a tricky one - you want to stay on good terms with the neighbour, but you don't want him walking through your garden. I'd be inclined to think the people you bought from didn't say anything to him. As you saw so little of him before lockdown are you perhaps being overly sensitive to his feelings? You can politely and tactfully remind him the licence agreement has ended and let him know you don't want him to walk across your garden and you definitely don't want him to trim your hedge, etc. I'd do that and plant some spiky shrubs like pyracantha on your side of his gate. That way you're not damaging his gate or affecting the shared boundary. Once you've spoken with him you'll have a better idea whether he's really a pillar of the community and neighbourly or trying it on.

Problem solved right now I think. We're in an area covered by the lockdown, no one is allowed in my garden now

We will talk to the neighbour though. Going to dig out all the deeds/paperwork this weekend so we've got it to hand if there's any disagreement, then will have a chat. Ultimately I'm ok with him using it occasionally but it has to be the exception rather than the rule, and with a written agreement in place that ensures it doesn't become an easement.

Sorry, I haven't read all of the replies so don't know if this has already been suggested, but if you currently do not have a gate between your garage and fence to the back lane, put one in and lock it. And don't give him a key. He will then have to approach you for access, so you can then have a discussion about it. It also sounds like something you should be doing anyway at some point if you will be having children yourself or visitors with young children.

Ah, cross-posted with you OP, and Felifox.