AIBU to leave 8 & 10 year alone to go out to dinner?

[BereftOfInk]

DH has suggested we go out to dinner together and leave the DC home alone. His parents often did this once he turned 10. I don't know if I'm being over protective as I was never left alone as a child. We live in a block of flats and would let our direct neighbours know they were alone, DC know them and could go and knock if they needed help for any reason. They offered to do this a while ago, but we thought the DC were too young so didn't. Neighbour suggested it as it's what her parents did when she was young (she wouldn't want to sit in our flat with them).

Get them ready for bed, stick a film on and let them go to bed when tired/fall asleep on the sofa. Acceptable or not?

Your opinion of risk and responsibility doesn't matter at all actually

I would have thought their opinion matters as much as anyone else’s on a post where the OP has asked for that opinion.

That it is legal in another country doesn’t automatically mean it is a good idea. In some countries it is legal for children to get married. In some it is legal for them to leave school aged 12 and work. In some it is legal for them not to attend school at all. Does that mean all those things are ok here?

And before anyone jumps up and down, no I’m not equating leaving children alone for the night with them being married, just pointing out that something being legal somewhere else doesn’t automatically make it ok. It’s legal to give 5 year olds alcohol in the U.K. I don’t expect many parents do that.

Germany may deem it safe and have all the information they need to make that decision, but they don’t say it is mandatory. If a parent is concerned about their child, they should absolutely have the right to decide not to do something.

No way, they are far too young.

Are you serious? No.

You've let them walk home since they were 5!!!! Fucking hell. So irresponsible!

Sorry, whilst the chances are they probably will be fine, I am not sure if it would be worth the risk.

Probably spoil your night out too if you were constantly worried about home

@WillowB

Absolutely not. I'm a primary teacher and if a child disclosed to me that their parents were leaving them alone like this I'd be reporting it to the safeguarding team who would pass it to SS.

This. Also a primary school teacher over here and would be reporting this as a safeguarding issue if one of your children disclosed this to me. Utterly inappropriate and shows a real lack of understanding of your children's needs

Bobbie draper

It depends what era you're talking about. Children who grew up in the 60s or earlier regularly walked to school on their own. I certainly went to Infants on my own & then with my sister to juniors. My friend at the time used to walk her younger sisters to infant school & them walk in to the juniors 1/2 mile away. This was in the middle of London.

@w0kingpizzaexpress

You leave an 8 year old for an hour to go shopping disgusting. get a delivery.

Tried that lately? 😂

Sorry OP but I also think they’re too young. Not worth the risk. 12 and 14, yes, probably if they were sensible for their age. 8 and 10 , nope.

I would imagine that some of the posters saying that a block of flats is more dangerous than a housing estate are imagining the blocks of flats that are more typical for the UK - huge, impersonal shaft of concrete in a big city, neighbours don't say hello to one another in passing, families constantly come and go, many are on the breadline.
I'm in a "block of flats", but it's relatively small (15 flats), the neighbours all know one another, we take in each other's post, chat to each other in the doorway. I've been here just 2 years but have already hugged a neighbour I came across crying, regularly help out an 85-year old who knocks on my door to have her shopping carried upstairs, climbed into my ground-floor neighbour's flat via her open balcony door when she accidentally locked herself out :) ... most people live in flats here, even those who are well off. Flats are usually pretty well maintained and well lit, unlike private housing districts. The building may actually just be a big house with a central staircase leading to 6 or 8 flats. Some areas are considered less safe in this city, but that is not because they aren't housing estates.

So OP, do you feel pressured by your dh into not "being British" (which is quite a red herring, I would say; many Germans avoid letting their children walk alone at age 5, for instance) or do you actually want to leave them at home and feel perfectly fine with it? Or have the more extreme posters on this thread even made you agree with him that Brits can be overly protective, so that they have encouraged you not to "be British"?

Culture is relevant because it affects the support on offer and societal interpretation.

In England I would not be leaving my 7 & 9 yo at home for a couple of hours for a few more years, not that I don't trust them not to be safe stare at minecraft all evening but because if they did have difficulties, the culture affects the support that they would receive.

My fellow volunteer at youth group works in child protection and I asked her when she thought DS1 would be OK to stay home instead of accompanying me. It's 90 minutes. 300m from home. One very quiet side road to cross if he felt the need to come to me, and she would not be concerned for him at 9, on his own (but not with the 7yo). The other factor is that he has ASD and would be happier on his own than at the venue because it is overwhelming for his sensory issues.

I wouldn't go twice the distance to the nearest pub though. (But I look forwards to that day...)

DS2 is a very different child, quite practical, less risk adverse and they compliment each other well (except for Minecraft related mishaps that spread into real life). I would need to feel comfortable that he is sensible to leave of his own accord too.

These are things to build up gently as the individual child is ready.

Well, now we know where all these women who post here "It's 7 pm, someone has rung my doorbell, I'm terrified" come from.

People, the age of criminal responsibility in England and Wales is 10 years old. Ten!!!

So at 10 years old a child is considered to be mature enough to not commit crime or go to prison (ok, youth prison, but prison nonetheless), but not not mature enough to be left on his or her own in their own home.

The UK is bonkers!

Also a primary school teacher over here and would be reporting this as a safeguarding issue if one of your children disclosed this to me. Utterly inappropriate and shows a real lack of understanding of your children's needs

But the OP is in a country where her children's teachers' would not register this as in any way unusual, and there would be no basis at all for a SS referral, or equivalent. Which is why culture is relevant here, as perceptions of children's needs and age-appropriate independence etc are culture-dependent.

The OP is clearly feeling a bit torn between her own cultural norms and the ones she sees around her where she lives.

When my (also German) son had just turned 7, he arrived at school a minute or two late, having walked there with his friend. The first lesson was PE, and his teacher had already locked the door to the sports hall, so he couldn't get in. He wandered around a bit alone then came back home - I work from home so was there to greet him. Nobody phoned to ask where he was, as nobody noticed. I brought it up at the next parents' meeting, and his teacher said that there were so many in the class that she didn't notice if one was missing; and there was no duty to take a register.

None of this teachers being worried about 10-year-olds being left alone for 2 hours here.

So at 10 years old a child is considered to be mature enough to not commit crime or go to prison (ok, youth prison, but prison nonetheless), but not not mature enough to be left on his or her own in their own home.

The UK is bonkers!

No, that is a bonkers argument. The CJS does not deal with 10 year olds in anything close to the same way as adults: yjlc.uk/age-2/

Iwalkinmyclothing, where did I say that 10 year old were treated the same as adults? I said exactly the opposite. Explicitly.

Nonetheless, 10 years old can be held responsible for a crime, convicted for it and incarcerated. And, as far as I know, the crime will stay on the said child's criminal record, which will affect their lives when they are adults.

In the UK, children are held to be responsible by the criminal justice system before they are taught basic responsibility by parents and schools. It is bonkers.

Conversely, in Germany the age of criminal responsibility is 14.

See the difference in the levels of sanity?

I really hope someone on here works for Social Services or the NSPCC and the OP is questioned. Because the amount of bullshit I've read from her is unreal

You shouldn't leave two children under the age of eleven alone, not ever. Not even to go to the supermarket for ten minutes. It's not safe. You say your children are mature but I hate to be the one to tell you this; Our brains dont fully mature until we're mid twenties (25-28)

One day you and your husband are gonna regret your choices, I can see it coming. If you were looking for supporters of your stupid idea, then Im sorry but you arent gonna find them here

Oh @LavaLamp5566 - it does help to RTFT.

a) how would a poster report anyone posting on an anonymous forum
b) why would the NSPCC take up a complaint/concern regarding a situation in Germany
c) the guidance in Germany is a lot more specific than the UK as the OP posted upthread and it is feasible to leave children under the age of 11.

You shouldn't leave two children under the age of eleven alone, not ever. Not even to go to the supermarket for ten minutes. It's not safe. You say your children are mature but I hate to be the one to tell you this; Our brains dont fully mature until we're mid twenties (25-28)

I certainly hope nobody is leaving you alone yet as I don't think you're ready

LavaLamp5566, you will be horrified to learn that in the UK, people can join the army at 16 and see active combat (i.e. kill people and risk being killed) at 18. So much for mature brains.

I think it's totally OTT to never leave a 10 year old alone for more than 10 minutes. I would expect most 11 or 12 year olds to be able to be left alone for most of the day if absolutely necessary. To get to that stage, they need to have their independence gradually built up.
German children do have much more independence and are very used to walking/cycling on their own and doing errands. How is being in their own house any more dangerous than being out and about on their own?

TheHoundsofLove, I totally agree about the gradual build-up of responsibility. In the UK, children go from zero responsibility in the last year of primary to traveling on the bus to school by themselves in the first year of secondary.

A 10 and and 8 year old should be able to spend a couple of hours in the evening by themselves in their own flat in a secure building, surrounded by friendly neighbours.

So OP, do you feel pressured by your dh into not "being British" (which is quite a red herring, I would say; many Germans avoid letting their children walk alone at age 5, for instance) or do you actually want to leave them at home and feel perfectly fine with it? Or have the more extreme posters on this thread even made you agree with him that Brits can be overly protective, so that they have encouraged you not to "be British"?
Interesting question. I suppose yes, I do feel a bit pressured into not appearing too British. I know by the end of this year there was only one mother who accompanied her KG child to school and that is because the child has a physical disability and cannot walk without help. However, she has to wait five minutes after her two older kids have already left in case anyone thinks she's accompanying them 🤣 But clearly I have been converted (desensitised?) to some extent as some of the comments left me

No, as I've previously said, I don't feel comfortable leaving them alone in the evening. Hence the post, wondering if, as the neighbour would know and be home, it was in fact ok.

When my (also German) son had just turned 7, he arrived at school a minute or two late, having walked there with his friend. The first lesson was PE, and his teacher had already locked the door to the sports hall, so he couldn't get in. He wandered around a bit alone then came back home - I work from home so was there to greet him. Nobody phoned to ask where he was, as nobody noticed
I'm 100% certain this wouldn't happen at our school. They have a policy of calling 5 minutes after the bell if a child hasn't appeared. The only time a child went missing was when the mum called to say they were running late and then the child decided to walk around the school and home again. They notified the parents about 20 minutes later and child was found playing with a neighbours pre-KG child in the garden.

Our block of flats is like most around here, there are 9 flats in our block. Everyone says hello to each other and chats to the kids when they see them, help moving stuff, lifting stuff, parcels and post on holidays etc. We've been here 5 years and the newest occupant has been 4 years.

Wow !!! Can’t actually believe you’ve asked the question. Absolutely bloody not..what if there was a fire.....kid falls hits head ect ect so many reasons why you shouldn’t leave them alone......what is wrong with some people