Is Layla Moran right that “woman” refers to gender rather than sex?

[Ikeasucks]

Moran (candidate for the LIbDem leadership) was interviewed by Nick Robinson on Radio 4 the other day and he asked her what a “woman” was. Her reply was that woman is gender, an identity whereas female was sex. I’ve been seeing this thinking more and more, i know the dictionary definition is still “adult human female” but meanings and how society views things does change over time. I’m wonder what people think, is woman related to gender/identity or to sex - has society moved on? I’m older, so AIBU to still think woman/female go hand in hand and the correct definition is “Adult human female”

No, she's wrong
What's a woman if it's not an adult human female? This argument that woman is a gender is used by people who really really want transwomen to be women but know they aren't really

Layla Moran has drunk the kool-aid. This sums it all up pretty well.
www.google.com/amp/s/www.spectator.co.uk/article/this-mp-has-summed-up-everything-wrong-with-the-transgender-debate/amp

images.app.goo.gl/AsmnQ6fe5KyHGQGf8

Moran... similar to moron interestingly.

The fact we are even asking these questions shows how depressingly powerful this lobby has become.

I'm a woman, not a 'cis-woman'. I have lived for the whole of my life with the social and biological consequences of being a woman.

She is completely wrong. "Woman", like "Female" refers to members of the sex which produce large gametes.

"Feminine" describes gender, which is a social construct.

A woman may be feminine, or not; as may a man

I can sort of see her thinking here because I do agree that female is the sex.
But I don’t fully agree woman is the gender. I want the word woman to belong to the biological female sex.
I don’t disagree that trans women can be called women if they wish but I do disagree with the movement to change biological females to “people” ie. people with periods. So not to ostracise trans women who can’t / don’t have periods for instance.
I’m not on board with that.

So in conclusion. No idea. But there are lots of very articulate voices on MN who will be along soon

No she made that up. And don’t tell me what I mean by words I use to describe myself. Imagine doing that to Black people. Black no longer means black. It means what I want it to mean.

Do you think anyone should be allowed to redefine and hijack the words you use to describe yourself?

She’s wrong. For lots of reasons.

This pisses over history. Women have been treated as they have because of their sex not gender.

The LibDems are the authors of their own misfortune.

I don't identify as a woman. I am a woman because I an an adult human female. Fuck all to do with dresses, make up, hair length, glitter etc.

They are systematically trying to separate any and all association between the words woman and female from our biology or biological functions. This is very bad for women.
If we can no longer talk about the reason for our oppression, we will no longer be able to fight it.

Adult males do not belong in our sex class category. They already have their own. If they are upset by that fact it is not our problem.

No you cannot just redefine words to suit yourself. Language does evolve (e.g. the term "gay") but not by decree. If the majority of people understand a word to mean one thing, you can't just claim it's moved on and they are behind the times.

But then, LM both believes in and can see gendered souls, so I don't expect much from her.

She wants to redefine the word 'woman' - and presumably 'girl' - in a way that separates it from the female sex meaning. To do this she invokes something she calls gender which she asserts is an identity and hey presto, she has accomplished her aim. I don't go along with these assertions of gender as an identity separate from sex, which I see a lot these days.
I don't suppose she's as eager to focus on redefining 'man'.

@Binterested and @Aethelthryth

Best posts I’ve read in a while.

She is deluded if she thinks that anyone would actually see a transwoman and really truly believe they were women. It’s usually blindingly obvious what sex they are. As such any disadvantage they face will be attributable to their trans status (or perhaps the way they behave, if they behave unreasonably — but that’s nothing to do with being trans) rather than because they are „women“ . It certainly won’t be the same disadvantage that I face due to my biology.

She’s an absolute fuckwit. The spectacle of politicians distorting commonly-understood language to fit their irrational beliefs and harmful ideologies does not induce people to vote for them. She’d probably be the first to bemoan the fact that Americans voted for Trump in full knowledge of the fact that he’s a big fat liar. And yet she expects British voters to do the same.

Woman means the female sex.
Gender is the expectations society places on men to behave a certain way and women to behave in a different way.
Gender is bullshit.
It really pisses me off ...we should be trying to teach our children that they don't have to confirm to the gender stereotypes society imposes on us. Instead we have this kind of horse shite that says women are a 'feeling', an 'identity', a 'feminine fucking essence'....How? How are those things defined?

OP, really? You really want to know whether this website of all website thinks YABU to take the GC position on the sex vs gender question? You don't think it has been discussed here enough?

I mean, discuss it and anything else you're interested in as much as you want and do so anywhere and at any time you please, but I don't think you genuinely came here to find out whether MN thinks YABU to disagree with Layla Moran here, you came to be told you are right and she is wrong as you know damn well what the dominant view on MN is about this.

I see the LibDems have learnt nothing from that dozy mare Jo Swinson losing her seat!

You can't just appropriate and change the meaning of words because you want to. The majority of the world's population understands woman = adult human female. No amount of twisting language will make it so that twaw. It's a lie no matter how much certain people turn themselves inside out to try and justify it.

@Iwalkinmyclothing

OP, really? You really want to know whether this website of all website thinks YABU to take the GC position on the sex vs gender question? You don't think it has been discussed here enough?

I mean, discuss it and anything else you're interested in as much as you want and do so anywhere and at any time you please, but I don't think you genuinely came here to find out whether MN thinks YABU to disagree with Layla Moran here, you came to be told you are right and she is wrong as you know damn well what the dominant view on MN is about this.

and why is that? The clue is in the name: MUMsnet... y‘know, something that only biological females can be ... pregnancy and birth and breastfeeding (and indeed, miscarriage/infertility, or even choosing to be children and facing society’s judgment for doing so) are very often the experiences that ram home just what it means to be a biological female. You can’t escape it, you can’t just identify as a man amd leave it behind. The very idea is laughable.

*choosing to be childfree, I mean... even the spellchecker doesn’t recognise the concept!

Woman is a descriptor for an adult human female in the same way we have them for animals. A doe is a female deer, a mare is a female horse, a bitch is a female dog etc.

Thing is, if you start with the mantra TWAW as an axiom then you have to redefine ‘woman’ as a word to be totally meaningless.

Woman is an attitude.

OP, really? You really want to know whether this website of all website thinks YABU to take the GC position on the sex vs gender question? You don't think it has been discussed here enough?

That’s why i posted on AIBU, to avoid the echo chamber on the feminist board which is only a small amount of members. I really want to hear from the non feminist board regulars and open it up to a wider audience

Both words 'woman' and 'female' refer to sex (as do 'man' and 'male').
Anyone who tries to argue otherwise simply comes across as being a bit thick, and therefore not a person I would consider voting for.

I listened to the interview last night and then read this comment this morning, so how many people agree with Moran