Is Layla Moran right that “woman” refers to gender rather than sex?

[Ikeasucks]

Moran (candidate for the LIbDem leadership) was interviewed by Nick Robinson on Radio 4 the other day and he asked her what a “woman” was. Her reply was that woman is gender, an identity whereas female was sex. I’ve been seeing this thinking more and more, i know the dictionary definition is still “adult human female” but meanings and how society views things does change over time. I’m wonder what people think, is woman related to gender/identity or to sex - has society moved on? I’m older, so AIBU to still think woman/female go hand in hand and the correct definition is “Adult human female”

This so called leadership hopeful has no real issues to talk about, hence this nonsense to get her some air time.

Female refers to an animal of any species. Within species we have words to define the male/female of that species, so for bovines it is cow (female) or bull (male), for birds hen (female) cock (male). Woman is the word for the human species for an adult female.

I would have more respect for these new gender theories if the people promoting them would at least be honest that they are trying to kick out the established meaning of woman, and replace it with a new definition (and be clear on what that is), and then explain the impacts of this on people formerly known as women, and why they think these are acceptable for whatever larger good they are promoting. Anything less is intellectual and moral dishonesty.

Maybe i should have asked the FB regulars to let this be a discussion for those who don’t really post there

Good luck with that one

Her reply was that woman is gender, an identity whereas female was sex

Does anyone else sometimes feel like they've nodded off and woken up on the Planet Zog? Layla Moran is as thick as mince if she believes that.

@CodenameVillanelle

No, she's wrong What's a woman if it's not an adult human female? This argument that woman is a gender is used by people who really really want transwomen to be women but know they aren't really

This argument that woman is a gender is used by people who really really want transwomen to be women but know they aren't really

I agree with this

I would like it if, generally, gender expectations were looser eg it should be fine for people to have any clothes / jobs / sports / roles in or out of the house, without people raising an eyebrow that they're not conforming to traditional gender roles

And I have huge sympathy for anyone who isn't comfortable in their own body, for whatever reason

But I don't agree that someone born male, with a penis, can suddenly become a woman just because they say that's what they consider themselves to be. Deep down, I think most people must know that's not the case, surely, even if they don't dare say so out loud

@Ikeasucks

I have no doubt man will be next

I doubt that tbh transmen don't seem to be anywhere near as vocal as transwomen.....oddly

This is where you go - liberation of sexual identity - liberation of sex work?

Funny (not so much) that the word 'work' is applied to sexual exploitation to come up with the phrase 'sex work' to imply that it somehow liberating because some women survive or escape.

Exploitation is never liberating.

The same argument could be used to say that racial exploitation was liberating. After all, didn't some slaves say they had benefited? Why not posit life in a village in a war torn African country with life in the 'free world'.

If you want to argue that exploitation of structurally oppressed groups - women, BAME, children, refugees etc - is liberating then do that.

If you want to think that this will protect you when you are clearly identifiable as a member of such a group you clearly lack integrity but don't try and convince others with integrity that you are in the right.

If you think the meaning of 'man' will be next you don't understand structural power. This is not a groundswell movement against gender identity per se or a movement for equality between men and women and the lived reality between say paid employment and unpaid caring.

When you are talking changing the word for more than half the world's population without their permission, you need to wonder what gives you the right?

It can mean either depending on who's talking. Which is part of the whole mess.

Woman is an adult human female
Woman Born not worn & not a bloody thought in a man’s head

Woman & transman both female
Man & transwoman both male

Transmen are pretty damn vocal when they're removing the word woman from maternity services, gynaecological procedures and sanitary protection.

They even try nipping at gay men from time to time for not fancying them (or shock! talking about penises) - but not much and to little effect.

They don't generally criticise men though. Just the usual whipping females. Everyone knows who's really a woman when they need someone to blame.

@Ikeasucks

I have no doubt man will be next

It really won’t.

I'm no expert on the subject but I think feminists are split in to two groups on the subject liberal feminists vs radical feminists (someone can correct me if I'm wrong there)

Well, there are dozens of branches of feminism, but I agree it does seem at least in the media that discusses this, a split between liberal feminists that focus on choice/agency vs radical feminists that focus on sex-based structural inequality.

Bring back Nick Clegg, all is forgiven!!

Seriously, the Tories must absolutely love having people like Layla Moran as opposition!!

@BiBabbles

I'm no expert on the subject but I think feminists are split in to two groups on the subject liberal feminists vs radical feminists (someone can correct me if I'm wrong there)

Well, there are dozens of branches of feminism, but I agree it does seem at least in the media that discusses this, a split between liberal feminists that focus on choice/agency vs radical feminists that focus on sex-based structural inequality.

Thanks. I would say though that in this instance it would be taking away some choices for women in favour of giving it to a minority so not totally in line with liberal feminists agendas if choice is one of them

Female is the sex, consists of girls and women.

Female is the sex, consists of girls and women

No this is inaccurate - female consists of the female of ALL species.
Woman is the female (adult) of the human species. That is what it has always meant.

Unless you believe that there are certain characteristics that have nothing to do with biology that all women possess and no people other than women possess then no, woman does not mean gender.

To anyone who does think woman is a gender and has nothing to do with biology, can you please describe the characteristics of a woman?

@albatrossdreams

Female is the sex, consists of girls and women

No this is inaccurate - female consists of the female of ALL species.
Woman is the female (adult) of the human species. That is what it has always meant.

Fair enough, I was talking about humans.

To anyone who does think woman is a gender and has nothing to do with biology, can you please describe the characteristics of a woman?

Precisely