Is Layla Moran right that “woman” refers to gender rather than sex?

[Ikeasucks]

Moran (candidate for the LIbDem leadership) was interviewed by Nick Robinson on Radio 4 the other day and he asked her what a “woman” was. Her reply was that woman is gender, an identity whereas female was sex. I’ve been seeing this thinking more and more, i know the dictionary definition is still “adult human female” but meanings and how society views things does change over time. I’m wonder what people think, is woman related to gender/identity or to sex - has society moved on? I’m older, so AIBU to still think woman/female go hand in hand and the correct definition is “Adult human female”

@Ikeasucks are you really not a feminist. You don’t want women to have equal rights and protections in society? That’s really strange. What do you believe then?

My patience for people who post supposedly thought provoking threads on what it means to be a woman and then announce they aren’t feminists is...thin.

Are feminists the only people allowed to discuss this issue then? As far as I’m aware the majority of feminists seem to support Layla Moran and the thinking that transwomen are women, that woman is a gender/a feeling/an identity. The Labour Party, The Green Party, The SNP and of course the Libdems all support this stance. Several feminist Labour Party leader candidates actually signed a pledge to ban members who didn’t support this stance.

Doe, a deer, a deer who says it’s a doe, ray a drop of golden sun....

you know damn well what the dominant view on MN is about this

Yes, and also in the real world when people realise exactly what is happening.

Why do you think the TRAs are constantly trying to get the feminism board shut down? Because we're all wrong or because they don't want anyone reading the views of those who can see through the bullshit?

Same reason they closed down the reddit board were 65000, mainly females, discussed all things GC. Can't have those dangerous women with their sensible voices talking to each other now can we.....

@Ikeasucks

My patience for people who post supposedly thought provoking threads on what it means to be a woman and then announce they aren’t feminists is...thin.

Are feminists the only people allowed to discuss this issue then? As far as I’m aware the majority of feminists seem to support Layla Moran and the thinking that transwomen are women, that woman is a gender/a feeling/an identity. The Labour Party, The Green Party, The SNP and of course the Libdems all support this stance. Several feminist Labour Party leader candidates actually signed a pledge to ban members who didn’t support this stance.

I'm no expert on the subject but I think feminists are split in to two groups on the subject liberal feminists vs radical feminists (someone can correct me if I'm wrong there)

A woman is an Adult Human Female. It's really quite something in this day and age we even have to question what woman is!

Pretty sure those raping women know what they are
Pretty sure those forcing FGM know what women are
Pretty sure those killing only girls at birth know what women are

Etc....etc... the list goes on and on, everyone knows what a women is until it's convenient to redefine women to suit a personal agenda.

AryaStark

Yes, but the libfeminists seem to be in the majority, they definitely seem to be running the Marches and mainstream groups etc and are all for identity politics, sex work being liberating etc whilst radfems seem to be mocked, outnumbered and outgunned - unfortunately

An interesting point I’d not considered before, after reading this thread.

If a) woman = adult human female
b) Female/male = genders (in current language)
Then
c) woman = adult human of the gender ‘female’

I don’t agree with this stance at all, but is that not the natural consequence of the dictionary definition with genders now being so fluid? Does any dictionary reference biology or sex instead?

Female is one of the two sexes. Woman describes adult humans who belong to that sex. It's not about identity.

Feminine describes gender presentation. You get feminine women, and masculine men, as well as the reverse. Being feminine is a choice and external, not internal.

Feminine hygiene products - which are internal, and about sex, are badly named - they're needed regardless of gender presentation.

@FourPerDozen

An interesting point I’d not considered before, after reading this thread.

If a) woman = adult human female
b) Female/male = genders (in current language)
Then
c) woman = adult human of the gender ‘female’

I don’t agree with this stance at all, but is that not the natural consequence of the dictionary definition with genders now being so fluid? Does any dictionary reference biology or sex instead?

The meaning of gender is highly ambiguous. Which really really doesn’t help. Brits are too squeamish to say the word sex for the biological distinction, so this crap has crept up on us, pushed by TRAs.

@ArchbishopOfBanterbury

Female is one of the two sexes. Woman describes adult humans who belong to that sex. It's not about identity.

Feminine describes gender presentation. You get feminine women, and masculine men, as well as the reverse. Being feminine is a choice and external, not internal.

Feminine hygiene products - which are internal, and about sex, are badly named - they're needed regardless of gender presentation.

Again, the phrase „ feminine hygiene“ is a euphemism... but it was logical at a time when there wasn’t really any doubt in the average person’s mind that someone feminine would be a female. I’d prefer sth factual like „menstrual hygiene/ menstrual products“

She's wrong.

Years ago the TRAs said that they knew transwomen couldn't change sex and that female would always = adult human female of the cunty kind.

They lied. It's now clear that they think that any word that previously referred to AHF (CK) is fair game and should refer to "gender".

At the moment we're allowed the abysmal uterus/cervix-havers, which obviously excludes lots of women.

Woman/female as a biological concept is being erased and Layla Moran is facilitating it.

Rad fems are merely being used as the new 'witch' as a distraction. Calling us nasty feminists blah blah blah. Only feminists object etc etc.

When in reality very few people buy into the gender crap we're currently being force fed.

A time will come when all the females bending over backwards to shit on the rest of us for a few woke cookies, will be cast aside by the very males they are trying to please.

I'm no expert on the subject but I think feminists are split in to two groups on the subject liberal feminists vs radical feminists (someone can correct me if I'm wrong there

Not saying you’re wrong cos i dont know, but im not even sure its a definite split in that way

I must admit I've started using her words as a practical approach to life. I always meant women when I said females anyway, so the upshot is that I have stopped using the word woman/women altogether and only say female. I have had some odd looks but don't care - it's accurate, which is the important thing to me.

As far as I’m aware the majority of feminists seem to support Layla Moran and the thinking that transwomen are women, that woman is a gender/a feeling/an identity

Not this feminist (card carrying since I was, ooo about 11 or 12 years old, waaay back in the late 1960s).

There is a whole movement of 'gender critical' feminists (I would call them plain 'feminists') who are protesting this sort of gender identity/gender is a feeling/gender is a stereotype and supersedes sex bolleaux.

But you don't hear much from them, as they are sacked, kicked off Twitter or Facebook, no-platformed at public events, beaten up (Maria Maclachan, anyone?) and generally told to shut up and get out of the way for the menz.

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

I'm no expert on the subject but I think feminists are split in to two groups on the subject liberal feminists vs radical feminists (someone can correct me if I'm wrong there

Not saying you’re wrong cos i dont know, but im not even sure its a definite split in that way

I'm no expert on this either, just the impression I got from reading/watching bits and pieces online!

I doubt most liberal feminists actually believe it.

My most flag-waving trans ally, liberal, turquoise haired undercut friend is definitely in the "be kind" camp.

She says the words but she doesn't believe it's the actual truth. Just being kind and a good ally because, hey, it doesn't hurt her. Patronising as hell really.

No one actually really believes TWAW. They think it for ideological reasons or be kind reasons or want to be part of the gang reasons but no one really believes it wholly.

arya

I’ve no idea whats going on at the best of times

But i did one of those on line tests to see what sort of feminist i was and came out in the middle...which is no Help 😀

@Binterested

No one actually really believes TWAW. They think it for ideological reasons or be kind reasons or want to be part of the gang reasons but no one really believes it wholly.

I reckon you’re right

Is anyone looking to redefine the meaning of ‘man’?

No. Thought not. I would not give this silly woman (for she is one regardless of how she feels) another second of my time. I’ll agree that the ‘silly’ is opinion but ‘woman’ is fact.

@Binterested

No one actually really believes TWAW. They think it for ideological reasons or be kind reasons or want to be part of the gang reasons but no one really believes it wholly.

Well, if they did it's kind of making transexuals invalid isn't it? Like if biology doesn't make a man or woman why transition at all? What about all these people who have existed among us for a long time?

These are the issues that occur when you try to distort reality and facts though, it has a knock on effect on other people's realities, like homosexuals and heterosexuals obviously) but homsexuals are the ones who've spent years fighting for their rights, now sexual orientation isn't a thing because that's not what makes a man a man or a woman a woman?

I have no doubt man will be next

A programme on radio 4 about the word woman and its meaning, now.