We need a new healthcare system

[FindANewWay]

Our healthcare system in the UK is shit. You have to pay into it as soon as you're earning 2/3 of minimum wage and it's an appalling service. We were already ranked way below other European systems prior to covid, and now we've got a death and infection rate on a par with Brazil.

The only strength we theoretically hsd in our terrible provision was that it was theoretically open to everyone, but actually that has proved not to be the case. Care home residents shunted out of hospitals, covid patients dying in the community and being denied treatment and admission. It's all happened. Because our healthcare system is tied up with politics. And it has failed us.

We shouldn't be clapping. We should be angry. Angry that we have been let down.

For those saying they don't know people earning under £50k in the NHS. These are the pay scales.

www.nhsemployers.org/pay-pensions-and-reward/agenda-for-change/pay-scales/annual

Band 2, 3 and 4 are HCA's and most admin.

A newly qualified, and majority of nurses, would be band 5.

Band 7 would be a ward manager for example. 8a would be a senior sister.

A deputy Director would be band 8c or band 9. So to be earning over £50k, anyone would be a senior manager with major responsibilities.

Annual leave on appointment is 27 days plus bank holidays. After 5 years service this rises to 29 days. After 10 years service this rises to 33 days.

I know very few NHS who don't work at least 10% extra hours a week.

You also don't get any perks like private health insurance or gym membership which in my experience were fairly common in private sector. You also get appallingly bad pay rises, face violence and vitriol from the public (see this thread for examples. Apparently the infection rate for covid was because of the NHS!)

"How though? If you say you've experienced the complete opposite at least give one example."

"GP not taking DP's health concerns seriously and fobbing him off with anti depressants
GP refusing to do a home visit for DP (who has agrophibia), eventually come out to discover he has pneumonia and send him to hospital - later diagnosed with a brain tumour! GP had not taken any of our joint attempts to get his mobility and other problems checked out."

Sounds like an individual GP issue, rather than the whole of the NHS being at fault.

"In hospital - attempting to give DP wrong medication. Luckily he was with it enough to speak up - someone else wouldn't have been and could have been killed. No apology and a hostile response when trying to discuss why and how that happened with ward sister"

Again a problem with an individual making a mistake.

"Hospital - filthy conditions - MRSA contracted twice.
Particular nurses who don't want to have to actaully do any work. One refused to help DP to the toilet and accused him of beibg lazy because he was able to watch a TV show on his laptop
MRI that supposedly booked while DP was an inpatient but due to be coming home not actaukky having been booked - discovered only after numerous phone calls"

These all sound like separate issues, that arent good, but dont think you can say the NHS needs to be scrapped or changed based on these. These sorts of things could happen anywhere but arent typical of everywhere in the NHS.

"These are just the ones I can rattle off, there have been many more."

"Is that enough for you@GetOffYourHighHorse? Funny how you don't expand upon your 'excellent' treatment yet expect justification of other people's assertion, perhaps, you'd like to take your own advice?"

I cant answer for high horse but from my perspective, weve received wonderful service, couldnt fault the NHS. Partner has brain injury, was looked after in hospital very long term and havent got a single complaint staff were brilliant, care was excellent. Aftercare also been excellent, all the services worked together very well.

My daughter has a rareish long term health condition. There is no cure, but doctors try to manage it as best as they can. I am on several forums as support groups, some based in the UK and others based in the US.

I have been shocked at just how bad the situation is in the states for treating this condition. I'm told that it's not a very profitable area of medicine, so finding a paediatric consultant in the area of medicine is difficult. Some have to travel for hours to find a consultant, and I often see posts where people are waiting for months and months and months just to get a diagnosis.

My daughter is treated by a coordinated multi disciplinary team, as is standard practice in the UK. Not in the US, where people have to organise their own therapists. Therefore, I have seen posts where people have said the information from their various different doctors / medical workers contradict each other, and they don't know what to do.

But probably the biggest complaint I see is that the consultant will prescribe a treatment (it is very expensive I know!) and the insurance refuses to fund it. So many posts where people are asking for what letters they need to write to get this medicine funded. This can last for weeks, sometimes even months.

The grass is really not always greener. I had always thought that If you have good insurance, then you got better treatment in the US than the UK. For this condition, I'm really not seeing it.

So yeah, the NHS has its problems, but I wouldn't be so quick to abandon it.

Wy do people always compare the NHS to the American system? It could be worse is a poor argument when Europe and Australia show it could also be a lot better.

*why

'Funny how you don't expand upon your 'excellent' treatment yet expect justification of other people's assertion, perhaps, you'd like to take your own advice?'

Ok.

A!ways able to access gp advice either via phone call, e consult or ftf.

Everyone I know be it friend or acquaintance and all family members have had operations and treatment as required and aftercare, follow up always provided.

Believe me I have have negative experiences but always down to the individual not the system. PALS have always listened and initiated change as needed. Shall I go on?

Of course this is anecdotal, as are your examples.

I doubt any gps do home visits for agoraphobic patients. Rapid response nurses or community nurses could just as easily have assessed your dp, didn't your gp arrange one?

How are we on a par with Romania @FindANewWay? This study shows we are 18th (in front of Germany, Canada and Sweden!) and Romania is 99th...

These all sound like separate issues, that arent good, but dont think you can say the NHS needs to be scrapped or changed based on these. These sorts of things could happen anywhere but arent typical of everywhere in the NHS.

Who makes up the NHS if not people? Why try to undermine someone's shitty experience?

A!ways able to access gp advice either via phone call, e consult or ftf.

You're lucky then! Many don't!

I doubt any gps do home visits for agoraphobic patients. Rapid response nurses or community nurses could just as easily have assessed your dp, didn't your gp arrange one?

I printed off their own home visit policy, which I included in my letter of complaint, stating they do home visits for patients unable to get to a surgery. He has mobility problems which were completely blown off by GP (on top of MH issues) because he has a brain tumour!! And no, the clearly did not arrange for anything.

'You also don't get any perks like private health insurance or gym membership which in my experience were fairly common in private sector.'

A decent pension, annual leave plus excellent sick pay is preferable to gym membership any day.

I know people who work in private healthcare and their annual leave plus sick pay is shit.

Oh, And PALS just send a, 'sorry you had a bad expeirence' letter.

The 'good' examples, are listed are also 'just indivisuals' and doesn't mean the overall service is good either!

'always able to access gp advice either via phone call, e consult or ftf.'

'You're lucky then! Many don't!'

You asked for my experience and that is it.

I really doubt anyone cannot access a GP anyway at some point (not on demand of course maybe a wait is required for them to get back to you). They all do phone or econsults at the moment, I would say it is easier than it was before the pandemic.

You have my sympathy, I have a family member with complex medical needs but they've never expected home visits, specialist nurses etc tend to liaise and refer as needed.

We shouldn’t compare the NHS to what it’s like in the US but rather to countries such as France and Germany. If they can do it so much better there (and with universal care for everyone), why can’t we?

I have already given examples to compare France to the U.K. but I could go on. Another example I have is that after surgery here you have to remove your plasters and clean your wounds yourself, which can be traumatic (I’ve had three laparoscopies and I struggled with the after op care; my husband helped me but he’s not a nurse!). In France a nurse comes to your house to do it. Same for older people or sick people who need care - superb carers and nurses who come to your house to help.

I am mostly happy with the NHS but I can’t help but compare it with other countries where the care is so much better, and I find it frustrating to think we could have it as good. It’s not as if France or Germany are much richer than the U.K.

Something else I find upsetting is the recovery rate for some cancers which is so low in the U.K.

Wy do people always compare the NHS to the American system? It could be worse is a poor argument when Europe and Australia show it could also be a lot better.

Because that’s the way we are heading.

There will be no national conversation about how we fund and organise our healthcare because Johnson and his pals don’t want one.

More and more of the services will be sold off, the remaining NHS will continue to be underfunded so it can’t commission the services it needs, and so we will sleepwalk into a two tier insurance based system which will cost us much, much more than either a properly funded NHS or a hybrid European or Aus/NZ model.

@WiseUpJanetWeiss

I hope you’re not right 😔 But I wouldn’t be surprised it you were, unfortunately.

We don’t need a new system
We need to properly fund, staff and resource what we have

This. We're in the bottom half of the EU league table for per capita spending on healthcare, despite much of the EU being far poorer than the UK.

"Who makes up the NHS if not people? Why try to undermine someone's shitty experience?"

Not undermining it, but it's a bit childish that because you personally have had a bad experience that you think the whole of the NHS needs to be changed. As someone else has said we have free access to medical care, free access to see a GP and emergency medical care. All treatment, including major operations and long term care is free and to an excellent standard. I'm sorry you had a bad experience but you need to look at the bigger picture.

As far as I can tell the rest of Europe have higher taxes/social security and they still have to pay to see a doc

On one of the (many) ambulance fly-on-the-wall programmes recently, there was a French guy being taken into A&E because he'd been injured in an assault. He asked the paramedic how much it would cost, and the look of relief on his face when he was told it was free was something to behold. I felt really proud.

I really don't want to live in a country where anyone has to even consider if they can afford to see a doctor or go to A&E, tbh. Especially when so many people here are really struggling to make ends meet because of low pay and high housing costs.

I’m interested in whether anyone comparing the NHS against the Australian model has lived in Australia and used that system. It’s a long time since I lived in Australia, but when I lived there in the early to mid-noughties there were real problems with those who had moved to private cover getting hit with big insurance excess bills. But then, I also liked the feeling of autonomy that I had in Australia- no having to register with a GP, easy to get appointments, etc. I personally didn’t mind paying to see the doctor because the advantages suited me. But many people in England would scream blue murder if they were asked to do the same.

What I find confusing is when those on the left describe the Australian system as better, when it’s a more conservative model. It makes me wonder if they know what they’re talking about.

[quote CrumpetsAndPuzzles]@WiseUpJanetWeiss

I hope you’re not right 😔 But I wouldn’t be surprised it you were, unfortunately.[/quote]
I hope I’m not right too. 🙁

"Same for older people or sick people who need care - superb carers and nurses who come to your house to help."
They do that in the UK too. Weve had no end of nurses and carers come to our house over the years. You see them going to other houses too.

I have already given examples to compare France to the U.K. but I could go on. Another example I have is that after surgery here you have to remove your plasters and clean your wounds yourself, which can be traumatic (I’ve had three laparoscopies and I struggled with the after op care; my husband helped me but he’s not a nurse!). In France a nurse comes to your house to do it. Same for older people or sick people who need care - superb carers and nurses who come to your house to help

Most GP nurses do post op wound care. Or district nurses if you can't get out. My friend was recently on a daily antibiotic drip, and the nurses came to her to do it rather than her being in hospital for 2 weeks. I think this could be very area dependent, though.

You get out what you put in and the NHS is severely underfunded.

Whether you agree or disagree with private ‘partnership’ or the privatisation of services I think one thing that can be agreed on is that the U.K. is utterly shit at it. From Thatcher, Blair, Cameron in coalition and (I’m sure if he gets a chance going on his record as London mayor) Johnson. Not one government of any political hue had actually gotten a good deal out of the private sector.

Cameron seriously undervalued the Post Office when it was privatised - ‘’The taxpayer... got £1.4 billion less for this valuable asset than it is worth today. A third of the shares were sold to just 16 city investors. And get this - there was a gentleman's agreement those city investors wouldn't sell the shares. What happened? Within weeks half of those shares had been sold and they made a killing worth hundreds of millions of pounds. In other words mates rates to your friends in the City."’
The quote is from Milliband at PMQs but I think any argument would be over the scale of the loss to taxpayers.
www.theguardian.com/business/2014/dec/18/royal-mail-sell-off-undervalued-firm-180-million

Andy Burnham under Labour with the NHS, Thatcher with the water companies. Even contractors like G4S who fuck up time and again are allowed right back to the trough.

'Most GP nurses do post op wound care. Or district nurses if you can't get out. My friend was recently on a daily antibiotic drip, and the nurses came to her to do it rather than her being in hospital for 2 weeks'

Exactly. As someone who has had lap surgery in the past I can't see how, barring disabilities, anyone would need a home visit to remove 3 or 4 tiny dressings.

There are community and practice nurses available in the UK for more complex dressings.

@Cam2020

Oh, And PALS just send a, 'sorry you had a bad expeirence' letter.

The 'good' examples, are listed are also 'just indivisuals' and doesn't mean the overall service is good either!

Yes. The standard 'sorry we failed to meet our usual high standards of care' letter.