to suggest NOT wearing masks, but instead wearing . . .

[Durgasarrow]

the charmingly named Neck Gaitors? They have been my all-purpose solution to the Great Mask Dilemma of 2020. They're washable, lightweight, stylish, useful, versatile, you can wear them as a scarf and pull them up as needed, or as a hairband or even a bracelet if it's too constricting to keep it around your neck. They're cheap to order from Amazon by the half dozen--they have seriously helped me keep my sanity.

@Stickstick, I agree. Personally if I believed it was helpful I would wear the super duper mask with 3 layers, tightly attached to my face 24/7.

For the Love of God, why cant this sad apology of a government not issue some basic instructions and proof? Because there is none. They have got us into the terror mindset and we ain't getting out any time soon.

www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-face-masks-and-coverings-work-act-now#

People who are unconvinced about the possible benefits of a physical barrier between themselves and others, I really don't follow the logic.

What level of effectiveness would you accept and get on board with?

An ideal physical barrier is don't get close to people. There you go.

Hence the recommendation to wear them in shops, businesses and other areas where it is difficult to keep a meaningful distance

Also the dynamics of transmission are different inside so 6 feet stops being effective

Agreed that people who choose not to wear them on principle could abide those principles by removing themselves from such places though

I find it very easy to keep a distance in shops. Very. Although I don't scrabble around the reduced section tbf.

Thomasina79 have you tried the strip of fabric or knitted strip with buttons? It takes all the pressure off the back of your ears if you have to wear that type of mask. Also if you have long hair and the elastic loops are too loose I find looping the elastic over a pony tail or bun works for me.

Although I don't scrabble around the reduced section tbf

lol

I it's only now you've raised the issue of your anxiety, peviously you were saying it was a matter of principle and a choice on your part

Ive said from very early on that I've been off with mental health issues and all if this has made it worse.
Mask wearing causes me severe distress. The distress arises from knowing what Im doing is wrong and is indirectly harming other people.
Severe distress is a mental health condition.
The mask CAUSES my anxiety.

Why on earth do any of you get to decide that the cause of anxiety must be something pre-existing this government covid response nightmare?

You don't

Chanjer

That Oxford 'study' you linked to says this:

'‘over-reliance on an evidence-based approach and assertion that evidence was weak due to few conclusive RCT (randomized control trial) results in community settings, discounting high quality non-RCT evidence’.

Does it not seem sus to you that they've saying 'there was too much reliance on an evidence based approach'?!
Decisions [to not wear masks] were 'wrongly' made based on 'conclusive results'....!!???!

That we should instead be relying on what are essentially correlation studies?!
It's all ridiculous!

They've even cited Spain in particular. Spain wore masks and the infection rate went down.
Of course it was published before infection rates in Spain and other mask wearing countries started to go back up again....

The paper also hadn't been peer reviewed at the time that article was written.
I will have a look later when I'm on the laptop to see if it has by now...

Why are some people on mumsnet so horrible. The woman just had something to say. I have come off a couple of times because of the horrible bitchiness that goes on.

It's interesting cos I guess you social distance? So that's a not very well backed up idea that also starts from an obvious premise, but if you observe it you probably logically agree with it

"It's interesting cos I guess you social distance? So that's a not very well backed up idea that also starts from an obvious premise, but if you observe it you probably logically agree with it*

That's a very interesting point.
Thinking back (social distancing is less well observed now) I observed it because it doesn't cause me any distress (I like my space) and although I thought it was largely pointless in supermarkets and the like, I didn't see any real downside to it. I wasn't aware of any disability which would make it difficult to practice social distancing, nor was I aware of any negative consequences against those who weren't able to do it.
Perhaps my assumptions were all wrong though. Very isolated people may have found it extremely distressing. There may well have been adverse consequences from others towards those say with learning difficulties who weren't able to practice it.

@pimpy,

if I missed or misunderstood what you said in a post further down I sincerely apologise.

Of course having to decide for oneself if one is in the category whereby wearing a mask causes medical problems including any originating from a severe anxiety related situation, will leave it open for people to lie and claim they are in this category when they are not. I think the percentage doing this will not be that high actually. Those who object on grounds of principle will want to air their view, I would think. These people usually feel very strongly about the subject.
I have found that people who have researched the dangers and problems accompanying the wearing of masks usually know a very great deal about it. There has been a lot of research into the efficacy of masks in hospitals.

Again, Pimpy, if I did not realise you were saying the opposite, I do most sincerely apologise. I spend time supporting disabled people and do get very defensive when I think yet another barrier to their being able to live comfortably has been raised. I hope you understand.

Ellyess

No problem at all, Ellyess - I think I struggle to communicate effectively at times, so I'm always ready to look to where my responsibility for a misunderstanding lies.

I too am distraught at what this mask mandate is doing to further impede the lives of those with disabilities, I have every sympathy for you and the people you support.

efy. You said:
I will need to put up with the rudeness and verbal violence I could get from other people, from not wearing one

I just wanted to say, I do hope this will not happen. I feel for you deeply as I know several people like you and I am only able to tolerate having my nose and mouth tightly or firmly covered for a short time. Even talking/writing about it is making me feel sick. As this is an anonymous column I can say I was attacked. You can guess how, being female, and that my face was covered and I thought I was going to asphyxiate and die.

I really do sympathise with all of you who cannot wear a mask and I really do hope that those of you with breathing difficulties, chest conditions, heart conditions and so on will not wear a mask. Maybe you could very lightly cover your face if that is comfortable, if you are really fearing the abuse of the ignorant.

On another note, this has made me all the more in admiration of the ladies among us who wear religious dress that covers your faces. I had never before considered that this might be quite a sacrifice in comfort. I admire people who follow their religion so devoutly.

Pimpy. Thanks so much! I felt so awful when I realised this morning that I had barked at entirely the wrong person! It's so good of you to reply. I appreciate it. I agree - on a messaging column I find it difficult not to be ambiguous. But I should have looked further on and thought harder. It's not an excuse but I was very tired, but then I should have been more careful.
Thanks again.

@Plimpy You are backtracking like fuck, FFS just own your original comments that you disagree with masks in principle (which I think is fair enough) instead of claiming you are not wearing a mask due to a legally permitted exemption, or as some gesture of support to others This is one of your first posts

"This mask law is relying on us all to police each other. Don't do it!
All you need to say is 'I'm exempt' when asked to wear a mask. You can claim extreme distress at wearing a mask and for it to be true if you care about the extreme distress that people unable to wear a mask through PTSD or other disabilities are experiencing.
For every person who doesn't believe in masks not wearing a mask, it helps normalise it for those who cannot.

Be brave. Help others. DON'T wear a mask."

Let me say you are absolutely not "helping" or supporting me by not wearing a mask - I find it extremely fucking offensive (as @LangClegsInSpace excellent posts articulate much better than me!) that you are co-opting other people's horrific traumas to use to support your own position. Whilst banging on about how you are doing it to support me. Not helping. Please stop.

I also find it extremely offensive you are using masks as a comparable to the treatment of Jews. It is so fucking wrong.

I'm actually almost a little embarrassed for you taking this line as I seriously believe you are actually making people think you're a knob for saying it (I don't meant that as a personal attack as in you're a knob just that people will think someone saying what you're saying is behaving like a knob) So they are much less likely to have sympathy for your actual position (your initial until you back tracked).

You're not helping yourself, and you sure as fuck aren't helping the people you are trying to piggyback over (while pretending you're doing it to support us).
Expressing solidarity and rising up on the back of other people's trauma really makes you look awful and I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that.

"You were the one in the other thread saying that rape victims shouldn't have to do this exact thing.
Why do you get to decide that violation of principles is a lesser exemption?"

Reading statements you make like the above - equating being raped and having your principles violated, I am sure would make people lose sympathy for your position.

I actually don't believe in compulsory mask wearing for lots of different reasons and I strongly believe someone talking offensive absolute fucking bollocks to convince others, isn't going to win anyone else round to this point of view.

@Kelp23

Does this help? 😂😂

No, it really doesn't. Why are they pissing on one another, anyway? It looks like the kind of thing you'd pick up at the counter in a German bookshop.

I am a conscientious objector where masks are concerned (or would be, if I could afford the fine. Which I could have done, pre-lockdown, when I had a job ).

It is only safe to put on and take off a mask with disinfected hand, not touching the front part that can be contaminated either by you (inside) or by others (outside). How would you take off one of those after use?
You have no idea if you have been covered by covid particules while wearing it and therefore contaminated; would you just smudge it all over your nostrils, eyes, hair when you remove it from around your neck?
Please look at the guidance for masks: layers, materials, fit and use. It is out there.
What you are suggesting is as dangerous than not wearing a mask but yes, everybody is the master of their own destiny. Shame than in this case vulnerable people are being put at risk by others.

This mask law is relying on us all to police each other. Don't do it!
All you need to say is 'I'm exempt' when asked to wear a mask. You can claim extreme distress at wearing a mask and for it to be true if you care about the extreme distress that people unable to wear a mask through PTSD or other disabilities are experiencing.
For every person who doesn't believe in masks not wearing a mask, it helps normalise it for those who cannot.

Be brave. Help others. DON'T wear a mask

I'm not back tracking at all. I stand by every word I've said here.

Many people are very distressed at the negative effect that the mask mandate is having. This is even more compounded if you don't believe that the mask mandate will do any good. Being forced to participate in something you feel does more harm than good is hugely distressing for many. For those whom it isn't, I would ask - why not?

I've had a pre-existing condition of anxiety for many years now. I view anxiety as a mental health disability. Was it related in any way to mask wearing? No.
Did I have a pre-existing condition where mask mandates cause me huge distress? No! Because, funnily enough, I've never been forced to participate in a mask mandate before.

What I'm saying is that mask mandates themselves can cause a level of distress that qualifies as a disability.

No one - absolutely no one gets to decide for others if the reason for the distress, the cause of it, or the timing of it 'fits' the exemption.
This is what LangClegsinSpace seemed to be saying (in my interpretation) - until she met my reason for distress, which she disagrees with, and thinks isn't valid.
That is rank hypocrisy.

Having thought about it more, too - for anyone able to wear a mask to decide that the bullying and agro those who aren't able to wear masks are facing due to the mandate, is ultimately 'worth it' for the potential benefits...who the fuck do they think they are to be able to decide that? What gives them the right?

Reading statements you make like the above - equating being raped and having your principles violated, I am sure would make people lose sympathy for your position.

I'm not equating rape with violation of principles. I'm equating distress with distress, and saying that no one else gets to decide as to whether the cause of the distress is legitimate or not.

Expressing solidarity and rising up on the back of other people's trauma really makes you look awful and I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that.

Keep thinking that. I won't be in the supermarket shouting about what and why I'm doing. I also won't be outside the supermarket protesting, as LangClegs suggest would be a better idea.

I'll be quietly shopping in the supermarket without a mask on - just the same as I've done the rest of my entire life.
Others without masks on will see me and know they aren't alone. Neither of us will have any idea as to why we aren't wearing masks.

'I was the only person in there without a mask on, too'.

That person won't be alone any more, if I can help it.

I'm somewhere in the middle of this great mask debate! I suspect it's a measure designed to make people 'feel' safer than actually 'be' safer. I can vouch for the fact that I touch my face all the time while wearing one because it's so uncomfortable. People everywhere are sharing each-others' masks. The moist, warm environment inside a mask is a hotbed of germs and infection. I had a conversation with a surgeon (off the record) that he had seen a paper that says that they were more harm than good. The harm to local retailers by people who are going to choose online shopping rather than have to spend time in shops while feeling they are being suffocated is immense. Covid is horrible, no doubt. But the hysteria surrounding it is worse, in my humble opinion. The damage to the economy caused by the measures are, in my opinion, going to cause more death, poverty and suffering than the virus itself. However - I am still doing what I'm 'told'. My opinion is only my opinion. I'll bow to what I'm told, but that doesn't mean I think it's right. I don't think it's right. As for face coverings - I'd rather see someone wear something which is comfortable for them even if it isn't perfect, than someone wearing a surgical mask that they keep touching and pulling away, just to try to get a breath. If I were running the country I'd give everyone up to date information and let them decide if they won't to take the chance or not. Then I'd throw lots of money to help those who want to isolate to be able to do so with free delivery, free help and lots of equipment. The lockdown, masks and damage to people's physical and mental health, never mind the economy, is just terrible. I know two people who had the virus, suffered badly with it and still exhausted after it. I know two people who have tested positive for antibodies and didn't even realise they'd had it. But the only person I know who might die because of coronavirus is my friend who cannot get his prostate surgery because everything else was put on the back burner because of the virus. Will I wear a mask in shops? Yes - I'll dutifully do as I'm told. Do I think it's a good idea? No - I think it's buying into mass hysteria.

FFS stop backtracking. You said this

"You were the one in the other thread saying that rape victims shouldn't have to do this exact thing.
Why do you get to decide that violation of principles is a lesser exemption?"

So don't fucking try and excuse it with this, a mealy mouthed I meant distress in general.

"I'm not equating rape with violation of principles. I'm equating distress with distress, and saying that no one else gets to decide as to whether the cause of the distress is legitimate or not."

I'd actually have more respect for you if you acknowledged you fucked up and apologised. But clearly you'd rather pretend you didn't say it, or if you did I took it the wrong way So carry on spouting shit like this and alienating people who may agree with you - and making other people think some people who don't wear masks are just knobheads.

I actually have no idea why I'm engaging with someone who says shit like that and pretends they didn't.

some people who don't wear masks are just knobheads

I saw a woman today with a chin mask, now thats a knob head.

Its pathetic, can't you see its just some trick by the government. Fun times in September when all the teachers and kids have their masks on.

A trick to what end?