12 year old arrested

[Pixxie7]

Do you think the police acted appropriately given that they had a tip off that a boy was waving a gun around.

The fact is, young black men are far, far more likely to be stopped and searched. Far more likely to be treated forcefully. There is no point in ignoring that.

But this wasn't a stop and search.

The piece answered a report of someone in possession of a gun. They found an imitation firearm.

Again, what should they have done differently? Would you volunteer to go and knock on the door unarmed and ask to check if it was a real gun or not? I mean kudos to you if you're volunteering but if you're not don't be telling other people that's what they need to do.

They found an imitation firearm

They found a BB gun which complied with the law.
Not an imitation firearm

@chomalungma

They found an imitation firearm

They found a BB gun which complied with the law.
Not an imitation firearm

If someone pointed that at me in the street, or at work, I wouldn't think "oh it's a BB gun". I'd think it was a real gun.

I wouldn't think "oh it's a BB gun". I'd think it was a real gun

But it's not an imitation firearm.

Words matter

But this wasn't a stop and search

I know. I was responding to a poster who said “the police will be afraid to stop and search”

Even if I knew it was a BB gun I would be worried. I assume those pellets hurt more than a nerf gun and they are not meant to be shot at a living thing.

If there were a load of young, white men being stabbed, no doubt there would be demands for something to be done to find out why, and to try and remedy it;

I take it you are not aware that Glasgow was named U.K. capital of knife crime. In 2005 the UN and the WHO published reports highlighting the issue of Scotland’s appalling record on violent crime...

Doesn’t sell newspapers though does it..

It wasn't an imitation gun. Can no one read the reports?! It was a toy BB gun. In their home. He wasn't running up and down the streets brandishing a firearm - despite what your prejudices are against black kids: Changing the story just so aggression against the black community especially children can be excused.

From the reporting it sounds like they just took the word of some rando who had been peering in other people's windows

Every person making any allegation to the police is a “ rando”. Are we supposed to ignore everything that we haven’t witnessed ourselves? You report your DH for violence you’re just a rando. You see a road traffic accident you’re just a rando. Why not ignore all of you? In this case they’re having to balance the reliability of the informant ( maybe unknown) against the potential of risk / danger IF the firearms turned out to be real. They weren’t called about a kid with a toy gun they were called about a Male with a firearm. If you think they should have ignored that information then you’re probably quite dim.

BB guns are not toys. And it was also illegal for him as a minor to have it unsupervised by an adult.

If we think a child is being harmed/neglected should we not report it as we would be just some rando?

@EnoughAlready2020

It wasn't an imitation gun. Can no one read the reports?! It was a toy BB gun. In their home. He wasn't running up and down the streets brandishing a firearm - despite what your prejudices are against black kids: Changing the story just so aggression against the black community especially children can be excused.

Why does the fact he is in his house change anything? He could have been contemplating killing himself, or was just messing around with a gun and could accidentally hurt himself, or was planning on hurting his family (unfortunately not unknown).

As soon as a gun is reported gun procedures have to be followed. This model gun is not clearly distinguishable from a real gun so had to be treated as if it was real.

EnoughAlready2020

Could you explain what an imitation firearm is then? I'd assume it to be something that looks like a real gun but apparently you're the expert so maybe you could explain?

What I know is, if that got pointed at me while I was on the till at work I would assume it was a gun.

Actually I just looked it up on the CPS website

www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/firearms

Definitions of "Imitation Firearms", "Realistic Imitation Firearms" and "Readily Convertible Imitations"

Imitation Firearms
An imitation firearm means "any thing which has the appearance of being a firearm (other than such a weapon as is mentioned in section 5(1) (b) of this Act), whether or not it is capable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile." section 57(4).

So how was this not an imitation firearm?

@Staplemaple

The fact is, young black men are far, far more likely to be stopped and searched. Far more likely to be treated forcefully. There is no point in ignoring that.

But the vast majority of knife crime in London is commited by young, black men. Stop and search being conducted on a disproportionate number of black men isn't that wild really. However, the real fix is to try and address the systemic and institutionalised racism that leaves a particular group of people more likely to be involved. If there were a load of young, white men being stabbed, no doubt there would be demands for something to be done to find out why, and to try and remedy it; and it is criminal this isn't the case. Rather than fight to reduce stop and search when there is actually a need for it because it's out of control in parts and blaming the police, we should be fighting for a resolution to make life better for them, and for everyone.

Totally agree.

It was interesting that when all the parties happened in London after lockdown all the media photos I saw and people I saw that were interviewed were BAME.

This was in response to people feeling it was the polices fault for turning up and everything was fine before they did.

Ignoring the fact this was an illegal street rave.

It's what situation is true that matters but the media's story is what people make judgements on.

Were all the parties in BAME communities? If so the police weren't racist turning up.

Were there other parties in Predominantly who the communities that police decided to ignore?

If so then yes, there are questions to be asked.

Or were these parties a mixture of white and BAME attendees and the media only showed the BAME party goers being violent?

Fact and context matter far more than how MSM report something. But people are still persuaded by media bias.

And yes! The BBC story is very badly written considering they are meant to be a non bias, license paid for media.

@Pixxie7

Thank goodness it was in UK! In US the outcome might have been tragic

@CodexDevinchi

If there were a load of young, white men being stabbed, no doubt there would be demands for something to be done to find out why, and to try and remedy it;

I take it you are not aware that Glasgow was named U.K. capital of knife crime. In 2005 the UN and the WHO published reports highlighting the issue of Scotland’s appalling record on violent crime...

Doesn’t sell newspapers though does it..

I was aware of this. It was being suggested the Met followed what Scotland did because they had had success.

And someone commented (can't remember what breakfast programme it was) that they shouldn't because this was black kids in London and not white. Person arguing it was black.

I never did work out what they meant and what angle they were coming from.

When I reported a girl smashing in the front door of a house in my street with a scooter at 6.30am - I was just a rando.

Thank goodness the police responded though because by the time they turned up 5 minutes later she had cut herself badly on glass and was bleeding everywhere.

Thank god they didn't just assume I was some rando pissed off at being woken by some drunken rando because in my street it's unusual!

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Actually I just looked it up on the CPS website

www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/firearms

Definitions of "Imitation Firearms", "Realistic Imitation Firearms" and "Readily Convertible Imitations"

Imitation Firearms
An imitation firearm means "any thing which has the appearance of being a firearm (other than such a weapon as is mentioned in section 5(1) (b) of this Act), whether or not it is capable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile." section 57(4).

So how was this not an imitation firearm?

Agreed. It’s worse than an imitation firearm though isn’t it Hooves? It works ie deploys shots. One of those grey areas.

I take it you are not aware that Glasgow was named U.K. capital of knife crime. In 2005 the UN and the WHO published reports highlighting the issue of Scotland’s appalling record on violent crime...

Yes, and they set up the VRU which was hugely successful. Despite it drastically reducing the numbers (aside from a few rises such as 2014), it's an impressive initiative that took a lot of funding, a lot of support, but had amazing results. It was only last year that London decided to give it a go and having any funding, years after this scheme was proved successful and years of rising knife crime; it would have been adopted sooner if it was a different demographic affected in London.

From Ask The Police

www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q334.htm

BB guns which fire plastic or aluminium balls by different methods such as compressed air or an electrical system may or may not be firearms and so may or may not be prohibited.

The soft air type of gun which is 'toy like' though it may be a little too powerful to be officially classed as a toy does not fit within the definition of a of a section 1 firearm because it is usually too low powered and is probably designed to fire plastic/aluminium balls

However, there are more powerful BB guns which could be considered firearms, for which, possession, purchase or acquisition, without holding a valid firearms certificate is an offence.

Possession of a BB guns that looks like a real firearm in a public place will amount to an offence of possession of an imitation firearm, regardless of the power of the gun itself. See Q329 for more information about imitation firearms.

(See Q326 regarding the exemption from holding a section 1 firearms certificate for airsoft guns).

If you are unsure whether your BB gun is legal or not, you should check with your local police force's firearms department who will be able to advise you.

Please note that all calls to police involving firearms are treated as if it is a genuine firearm so be aware that if you do wave an imitation firearm around you could find yourself surrounded by firearms officers pointing real weapons at you.

in a public place

A living room is not a public place.

@mathanxiety

in a public place

A living room is not a public place.

But it's not legal to have a handgun at home in the UK. The witness clearly thought they saw a handgun. Not unreasonable given it looked like a handgun is it? Therefore police followed the correct procedure for reports of a firearm

Please note that all calls to police involving firearms are treated as if it is a genuine firearm so be aware that if you do wave an imitation firearm around you could find yourself surrounded by firearms officers pointing real weapons at you.

They couldn't say it much clearer could they?

Please note that all calls to police involving firearms are treated as if it is a genuine firearm so be aware that if you do wave an imitation firearm around you could find yourself surrounded by firearms officers pointing real weapons at you.

I also thought this was common knowledge. I hammered it home enough to my ds re nerf guns. And they are orange and blue plastic feckers. He knew if he aimed out of window etc and made someone genuinely feel concerned about a gun I wasn't coming to bail him out and defend him in a hurry

This isn’t the US.
@Mummyoflittledragon

The toleration or even the applauding of disproportionate responses indicate that the UK is sliding rapidly toward American levels of callousness and brutality. Or should I say 'back toward American levels of callousness and brutality'? Calls for the reinstatement of hanging have never gone away.

And let's not forget that NI is part of the UK and saw the presence of a heavily-armed military force for approximately 30 years, and armed police for its entire history, something which nobody seems to have learned anything from. The sort of policing which became the norm in NI is now being visited on the island of Britain and the response from targeted communities will be similar.

'Black male has gun' does not equal 'black male intends to shoot people'. The police response was proportionate only if they believed someone was being threatened.

The police should not have assumed that a handgun-like item seen through a window late at night was the real thing posing a threat to life. It is not illegal to have a BB gun in your home in the UK. The law is the same whether you live in a rural or urban area.