To ask if you are OK with your daughter's subs being spent on this?

[KatieAlcock]

I've just come to update you on my case against Girlguiding, where they expelled me for raising safeguarding concerns and for asking why we had to believe in inner gender identity to be a leader.
Girlguiding have spent AT LEAST £35,000 and probably more like £100,000 of the subs you pay for your daughter to go to Rainbows, Brownies or Guides, on defending a case against me, a committed leader who wants to make sure girls are safe and leaders have freedom of expression.

Full text of my update in the next post so as not to bore you to death!

The policy also states that parents should not be told if a male child will be sharing these facilities with their daughter.

I think this is indefensible legally, both in a safeguarding context and also with regard to the rights of families who are, for example, Muslims or observant Jews and who have been told that GG is a single-sex organisation.

So we'll see.

if people are that scared that something sexual would go on then that can also happen with girls

Absolutely, and I wouldn't be too surprised if it has happened in my units before. But that's not my point. Yes, teenagers experiment sexually. But a girl who has been raped by a boy should have the right to know that she doesn't have to share a tent with a boy. If there's a boy in her unit, she's not going to even consider going to camp. Girlguiding is supposed to be for girls and it's supposed to be a safe space. Do you have the compassion to realise this?

Girls who start a sexual relationship on camp aren't going to get each other pregnant.
And since men commit 90%+ of sexual abuse, adult women are vastly less likely to abuse a girl than adult women. This is WHY GG has never had a serious abuse case over the years and WHY GG has separate sleeping arrangements for men and boys. Unless you know of a magic wand that makes anyone who is trans (or probably even more to the point, anyone who SAYS they are trans) automatically unable to abuse according to their sex-based patterns?
The research says otherwise.

Are you telling the Muslim parents that their daughter "perhaps shouldn't come on this residential as there will be a transwoman there"? If so that's against regulations.

Are you discussing with girls that X is trans and in fact does have a boy's biology and won't ever be starting their periods and letting them know it's OK to talk about this? Because that's also against regulations.

Are you saying to young transgirls "we do know you have boys' bodies and it's OK to talk about it and anyone who asks you to keep your biological sex a secret is doing a very wrong thing"? Because that's also against regulations.

If a girl in your unit wants a girls-only toilet during meetings and knows that A is a transgirl and doesn't want to share a toilet with her, are you telling her that's OK and arranging for a toilet "for all" and a toilet "for girls" or are you telling her she's being unkind? I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of Rainbows going to the loo in packs!

I'm used to being dismissed due to my age by men (oh, you're too young, you mustn't know much about this topic; oh, you're so old you're out of date/not worth considering/no longer attractive) but I'm sorry to see it from women.

We simply wouldn't go to a big church hall if it was available to us but rather go somewhere that the sleeping quarters are separated.

This is fine for you but we've had church hall sleepovers due to having no other affordable accommodation. So it's all-in-together (@00100001 you are incorrect, leaders in Guiding share sleeping spaces with girls when necessary) or no residential and to retain girls it's often really important to have sleepovers.

Please don't be so silly to suggest that leader don't understand safeguarding concerns

While putting aside standard safeguarding practice based on ideological ideas.

I'm afraid that's the bit I find silly personally, although I tried to put it a bit more politely. It's odd that you seem to find people questioning and discussing this a bit... wrong of them. Which again is not really safeguarding is it? How does it go in serious case reviews - ask the difficult questions, think the unthinkable?

I'll ask again. A male person of any age is not permitted, by safeguarding, to share some facilities with female children. That male person however then is, if they self declare as female.

What has changed that means that safeguarding boundary can be set aside?

Are you telling the Muslim parents that their daughter "perhaps shouldn't come on this residential as there will be a transwoman there"? If so that's against regulations.
Please read again. If YOU as a leader knew that child A needed to be separated from
Child B due to religious reasons in terms of sleeping arrangements you as a a leader go Child A will sleep in room 1 and Child B will sleep in room B As I have explained if I knew this would be an issue you plan accordingly and the parents need to be none the wiser. You are upholding any religious or mental needs in terms of rape victims whilst being inclusive.

Are you discussing with girls that X is trans and in fact does have a boy's biology and won't ever be starting their periods and letting them know it's OK to talk about this? Because that's also against regulations.
Again not what I've said. I said in our experience our girls mostly come from one or two schools. You tend to find that the girls already know that Child A is transgender. I've clearly said that over and over you aren't saying anything but the girls tend to already know!

Are you saying to young transgirls "we do know you have boys' bodies and it's OK to talk about it and anyone who asks you to keep your biological sex a secret is doing a very wrong thing"? Because that's also against regulations.
Why would we? As with every single other member we create a safe space where leaders are approachable to talk about anything. If a girl comes and talks to you then great but you as a leader do not and should not start those conversations.

If a girl in your unit wants a girls-only toilet during meetings and knows that A is a transgirl and doesn't want to share a toilet with her, are you telling her that's OK and arranging for a toilet "for all" and a toilet "for girls" or are you telling her she's being unkind? I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of Rainbows going to the loo in packs!
We have never had this however as a unit team we have spoken about how we would approach it. We are lucky enough that all our meeting places have individual toilet rooms rather than separate toilets so they are not gendered. However if we went to another meeting place that did not have this we would allow a girl to use the disabled toilet without drawing any attention to it etc.

I'm used to being dismissed due to my age by men (oh, you're too young, you mustn't know much about this topic; oh, you're so old you're out of date/not worth considering/no longer attractive) but I'm sorry to see it from women.
I am interested as the stats that we got from our region were interesting. I wondered if it was a pattern across the board.
Also never said you were not attractive... I wouldn't comment on that seeming as you haven't asked/haven't posted a picture!

@KatieAlcock

We simply wouldn't go to a big church hall if it was available to us but rather go somewhere that the sleeping quarters are separated.

This is fine for you but we've had church hall sleepovers due to having no other affordable accommodation. So it's all-in-together (@00100001 you are incorrect, leaders in Guiding share sleeping spaces with girls when necessary) or no residential and to retain girls it's often really important to have sleepovers.

I think I did correct myself. Sorry if I didn't.

However parents would be made aware of they were sharing, and why they were sharing etc

But the issue still remains that parents would not officially know if their female child was sharing spaces with a male Guide or Guider

A male person of any age is not permitted, by safeguarding, to share some facilities with female children.

Can I ask please what specifically you are referring to when you say 'by safeguarding'- is it a particular piece of legislation or guidance?

homophobic AND ageist
nice

in our experience our girls mostly come from one or two schools.
Again, that's fine for you, I've had 10 Guides from 5 different schools, including one very religious girl with SEND. There is no WAY that girl's parents would have allowed her to even attend a mixed sex group.

• Please read again. If YOU as a leader knew that child A needed to be separated from Child B due to religious reasons in terms of sleeping arrangements you as a a leader go Child A will sleep in room 1 and Child B will sleep in room B As I have explained if I knew this would be an issue you plan accordingly and the parents need to be none the wiser. You are upholding any religious or mental needs in terms of rape victims whilst being inclusive. *

Yay. "Nadia you're a strict Muslim/Kat you're a foster child so you need to sleep in the other room as long as we can get two more adults to sleep in there with you. WHY? Oh I can't tell you why other than it's against your religion/social services risk assessment to sleep with all the others." Or "Susie I can see that you're trans so you'll have to sleep in the other room if I can find two more adult." How inclusive....

And that's assuming you have another room!

Safeguarding legislation and statutory guidance for those interested:

The Children Act 1989
The Children and Social Work Act 2017
Keeping Children Safe in Education 2019
Working Together to Safeguard Children 2018
The Education Act 2002
The United Nations convention on the Rights of the Child 1992
The Equality Act 2010
The Children and Families Act 2014
The Human Rights Act 1998

The key principle of safeguarding children is that the welfare of the child is paramount (including overriding the rights or wishes of any individual to express their identity). That is how the law should be interpreted, but unfortunately it isn’t...and anyone who cares about children should be VERY worried indeed.

However if we went to another meeting place that did not have this we would allow a girl to use the disabled toilet without drawing any attention to it etc.

Oh dear. You'd be going against GG's guidance - you have to let them use the facilities they choose.

Safeguarding - this might be a good place to start

www.gov.uk/government/publications/working-together-to-safeguard-children--2

@titchy 🙄 for goodness sake. All you say is 'we have decided what rooms you will be in' and separate all girls into rooms. We quite often do this anyway as otherwise you get all 15 wanted to share with one girl and have tantrums.

You don't have to make it into a big deal

@titchy what are you on about. You don't force them into the toilet but you have given them the option.

You are creating the issues here

@titchy also you don't HAVE to have 2 adults in the same room as the girls. The girls are able to sleep in their own room provided adults are close by.
From the going away with scheme:

'girls must sleep in rooms close to those occupied by the leaders.'

So you are saying that it works provided everyone knows eachother prior to joining consent to any of it is implied by no one saying anything, you can secure affordable venues that allow you to split the group, and religious girls are happy to choose to segregate themselves and hope they don't prevent another girl with a disability from using their facilities by sharing the accessible toilet?

Not sure its the success story you are making out it is tbh

Let's also not forget that there is nothing that says you HAVE to go on residentials with your units. If you are unable to find a working solution to your particular needs then you simply do day trips instead.
It's not hard.

@squidpid

Let's also not forget that there is nothing that says you HAVE to go on residentials with your units. If you are unable to find a working solution to your particular needs then you simply do day trips instead. It's not hard.

So that would means all the girls have to miss out on residentials because of a trans girl.

I think the thing that strikes me most squid is that you’re making it work despite of, not because of, the regulations

You’re being pragmatic, you’re talking amongst yourselves, as you say you know or would know which guides, which leaders are trans, you’re taking what most people would call the ‘common sense’ approach

The problem is the moment everyone is interpreting the regulations in their own way there is no uniformity of approach and then it becomes a problem. What’s reasonable & common sense to you may not be to other people

There has to be clarity and at the moment there really isn’t. The moment GG state women includes men who identify as women, clarity goes out the window

At that point safeguarding and the legislation surrounding it must be paramount and it seems that some of the regulations are in Conflict with that

[quote squidpid]@KatieAlcock think you've got the wrong end of the stick.
I said that the members themselves talk and 9/10 times the transgender member reveals this to their peers. Lots of members also attend the same schools etc so are well aware of the situation.

Secondly the leaders are aware that the member is transgender and the safeguarding issues that surround this. We never ever discriminate but a lot of planning goes on when thinking about camps etc. As I say most situations the girls and parents have been aware anyway as they all talk etc.

You don't need to reveal to parents to plan safeguarding measures.

I'd be very interested to know what age you are. We did a lot of work within our region when this was first announced and found (from our region only so not representative of all) that those who did not agree with the inclusive policy were 50+ whereas those under the age of 40 were unanimously for the policy and had no issues at all.

Would you expect parents to be told if a guide was a lesbian?

[/quote]
I'd be interested to hear why you felt it was relevant to ask about lesbians.

I'd be interested to hear why you felt it was relevant to ask about lesbians.

This was in response to the argument from various PP who said the reason they have an issue with transgender members was that something sexual could happen if sharing a bedroom space which is why parents should be informed.
Hence my reply of sexual things can and do happen in girl only spaces but you wouldn't expect to have to inform all the parents that girl A was a lesbian or that the leader is a lesbian. Therefore the argument that something sexual could happen is not relevant as it can happen anyway!

No subs these days, because of all this shite.

But the fact that they are spending so much in order to get males into female spaces (and not telling parents either) is just..stupid IMO.

@squidpid

I'd be interested to hear why you felt it was relevant to ask about lesbians.

This was in response to the argument from various PP who said the reason they have an issue with transgender members was that something sexual could happen if sharing a bedroom space which is why parents should be informed.
Hence my reply of sexual things can and do happen in girl only spaces but you wouldn't expect to have to inform all the parents that girl A was a lesbian or that the leader is a lesbian. Therefore the argument that something sexual could happen is not relevant as it can happen anyway!

It could only be the same if lesbians posed the same threat of assault as biological males however they identify do. Which is not the case.

Why do people continue to attempt to conflate the safeguarding risk that males present to girls with homosexual relationships? It’s deeply homophobic.
There are loads of lesbian and bisexual guiders and youth members. No one gives a shit.
It’s really fucking irritating. Lesbians are not a threat. Men are. Ffs. Attempting to correlate the two is pretty desperate.