AIBU to feel confused and old about transgender issues.

[confusedandold]

I was born in 1976 so 43 years old. During school, I don't recall any children in my school having issues with their gender. There may have been some but none that I was away of. I had no experience of transgender people apart from a vague memory of seeing a man in women clothing walking up the road and being fascinated by it.

Transgender issues have never been at the forefront of my mind. I feel that I'm very accepting of other people's life choices and that people have a right to be happy in their lives whatever that means for them.

Lately, I feel completely confused by transgender issues. It has never been something that I'd given much thought to but I get completely an utterly confused by the terminology. Non-binary, cisgender etc this is all wording that I had never encountered before. Everyone seems to be talking about trans right and gender issues and I don't understand where this has suddenly come from. Is it that more people have issues around their gender? Is it fashionable to be gender-neutral? Is it just that people now feel more comfortable in expressing how they feel inside? Is there greater acceptance? I'm returning to the UK after 10 years abroad and this is a topic that was never really discussed when I left.

I guess I'm asking because I don't want to inadvertently offend anyone by using incorrect terminology. As shocking as this may sound but when I was at school mixed-race people were referred to as 'half-caste', even mixed-race people in my school referred to themselves in this way, now this is a huge no-no. Times change, language changes and it is so easy to offend while having no intention whatsoever of doing so.

@startrek90

I was initially all on board with the #bekind #twaw bandwagon. I was a supporter of lgbt rights, I advocated and campaigned for gay marriage etc..

As time went on however and I saw how lesbians are being treated then I changed my mind. Lesbians are really the canaries in the coal mine here.

The trans right movement along with stonewall are actively campaigning to deny lesbians (natal women who are sexually attracted to other natal women) the right to define their own sexuality and their own right to choose who they have sexual relations with. In fact stonewall have been promoting a workshop for self declared trans women (the majority of whom retain a functioning male penis and their original sexual orientation) called 'breaking the cotton ceiling' ie getting into lesbian women's underwear.

Lesbians are attacked, called bigots, assaulted, threatened with rape etc simply for saying that they don't want to be in a relationship with/have sex with trans women. In fact lesbian women are told to 'get over it' that they are 'genital fetishists' and need to learn to love 'girl dick'. How is this not anything other than a male rights movement?

It's really obvious when you compare the treatment of lesbians by TRAs and the treatment of gay men by TRAs. Gay men aren't abused for refusing sex with transmen, they aren't told to get over their genital fetish, they aren't told to love the male vagina.

Its almost as if trans activists think there is a real difference between gay males and trans men.....

To me this TRA movement is just a mens rights movement dressed up in progressive language. Helped along with regular doses of racism and homophobia.

Only someone racist, sexist and homophobic would think black women or lesbian women aren't women but instead a subset of women.

Good post.

No one will be talking to you about it much in person. Maybe if you meet a trans person.

Just google the basics and say you're accepting of others choices.

Cis just means natal - born as
Gender neutral - no gender
Fluid - switches dependant on the moment

Don't stress unless you work for a trans charity or something.

@GoshHashana

In the end, the backlash against this movement will be hugely damaging for gay people. And women. We're being thrown under the bus. This isn't a progressive movement. Mark my words - in 15 years time there'll be fascist governments across Europe, and gay rights will be zero again. Major own goal on the part of Stonewall and the like.

That's my worry too. Along with the genuine dysmorphia sufferers who just want to get on with their lives without stomping over the rights and boundaries of other people.

Currently MAPs and Fetishists are also trying to crawl under the LGB banner of tolerance and inclusion.

And before anyone starts, I am not conflating or comparing trans and MAPs.

Why should males access female spaces? Because they're not men, they are women so have every right to want to access female spaces

So, to be clear, a man, dressed in a stereotypically male way, with no intention of any medical intevention or any attempt to 'look' like a woman (they're a 'gender non-conforming trans woman'), if he claims he's a woman he is and should be allowed into women's changing rooms, toilets, etc. and not challenged because you can never assume somebody's gender and to question it is transphobic?

Because if you agree with the above and claim that he is a woman, there is no safeguarding anymore, no restrictions, no listening to women (I will not say Cis) who feel unsafe. It is a free for all.

People say why would anyone who wasn't trans put themselves through the difficulties of transition, but it seems under the current definition nobody has to actually do anything except say they're trans and scream transphobia at anyone who even looks at them slightly warily.

I'm 25 and have only met one trans person it's not that common still

@CorianderLord

No one will be talking to you about it much in person. Maybe if you meet a trans person.

Just google the basics and say you're accepting of others choices.

Cis just means natal - born as
Gender neutral - no gender
Fluid - switches dependant on the moment

Don't stress unless you work for a trans charity or something.

Cis is a term that many women and men find deeply offensive.

Please refrain from attaching this regressive and sexist label/slur to women. I am not a subset of woman. This term has no place in humanity

If gay rights get trampled, I will be at the marches again and I will be arguing for gay rights on the internet again. I do wonder if any of the lot on Twitter will join in. I doubt it by the rampant homophobia that threads itself through the agglomeration marketing itself as a trans* rights movement.

Non-binary isn't a phase that kids go through @previous posters I'm definitely not a kid (closer to 30 now!) and I'm non-binary. I've been this way since I was in school without having a name for it.

CorianderLord
I am female. My Chromosomes make me female. End of

Currently MAPs and Fetishists are also trying to crawl under the LGB banner of tolerance and inclusion.

I assure you, we've noticed MAPs as a group and none of us accept them. Anything even close to a MAP flag/sign is put under intense scrutiny.

Ladies STOP moaning about being sexually assaulted. Someone far more important than you feels SAD INSIDE.

Aaah. Now you put it that way, I get it. I'm sorry for my previous GC views, which I can now see were completely wrong. I've been a bit of a c*nt, haven't I? I was so wrapped up in trying to keep women and girls safe that I completely overlooked the men's feelz.

Once again, I'm sorry. I'll go and educate myself!

Are you insinuating all trans people are perverts? Or are you just uncomfortable around people who don't fit your norms?

a) Don't talk so far back: I'm insinuating sweet fuck all

b) I'm uncomfortable around adult males in female spaces

Loki can I ask you something?

All my life I've been interested in a range of things society codes as masculine (physical sciences, football, climbing, etc) and some of which society codes as feminine (needlework, dress design, to give a couple of examples). I am a woman (biology) but contingently so - my sex is only linked to my interests in a kind of accidental way. I've always felt society's attempt to shove me into rigid boxes because of my sex was something wrong with society, not me.

Now it's always tempting for GC feminists like me to see "non binary" as simply internalising society's boxes and sayin "I don't fit so there must be a third box spanning both masculine and feminine spaces for me to exist in."

But I presume this is not how you see it, so I wondered what differed between our life experiences that leads you to find "non binary" a useful descriptor for your own lived experience. I would be I interested because I find "non binary" to be the category I struggle to understand.

Why on earth would we insinuate all males are perverts?

I have a dad, brother, husband and sons, doesn't mean they should all have access to female spaces! To be fair, they wouldn't want to barge into our spaces to begin with.

I'm uncomfortable around adult males in female spaces

This. This should be enough. No justification required.

@CorianderLord

No one will be talking to you about it much in person. Maybe if you meet a trans person.

Just google the basics and say you're accepting of others choices.

Cis just means natal - born as
Gender neutral - no gender
Fluid - switches dependant on the moment

Don't stress unless you work for a trans charity or something.

If that is what cis meant then transwomen could (mostly) happily be referred to as cis males. Good luck with that!

@LokiOdinson

Non-binary isn't a phase that kids go through *@previous* posters I'm definitely not a kid (closer to 30 now!) and I'm non-binary. I've been this way since I was in school without having a name for it.

Yeah, some of us take a little longer than others to realise other women are not silly caricatures of femininity. Which is what you are directly implying with the non-binary 'I'm not like the other girls' BS.

Op, Mumsnet is probably the worst place you could have asked about this.

I reccomend you do some actual research that isn't on a forum such as watching the Netflix Documentary Disclosure for a start. Then you will understand but for the love of God don't go on the feminism chat section of Mumsnet otherwise you won't get a clear understanding, you will just be advised to be anti trans.

@GreytExpectations

Op, Mumsnet is probably the worst place you could have asked about this.

I reccomend you do some actual research that isn't on a forum such as watching the Netflix Documentary Disclosure for a start. Then you will understand but for the love of God don't go on the feminism chat section of Mumsnet otherwise you won't get a clear understanding, you will just be advised to be anti trans.

Funny thing. Your disablism a few weeks ago drove me right to the feminism chat board. You have thus done more to radicalise me than anyone else on MN.

Good job!

Cis just means natal - born as
Gender neutral - no gender
Fluid - switches dependant on the moment

no it doesnt. are you deliberately misleading the op?
Don't stress unless you work for a trans charity or something

dont stress unless youre happy to see the word 'woman' and womens rights and protections emptied of meaning.?

confused

There is a wealth of information regarding trans issues on the internet

FWR gets the most traffic on this subject and obviously people from each ‘end’ of the ‘debate’ post interesting links to further information so its well worth looking there and reading the links that interest you, other posters have recommended sites on here...again from both ‘ends’

You wont be advised to be anti trans, there are lots of different opinions with loads of posters being quite ‘middle of the road’

I recommend the Transwidows thread on the Feminism board. These are first hand accounts of women and (now adult) children whose lives were deeply impacted when their husbands announced they were trans.

I'd also recommend looking at the accounts of transmen and detransitions, there's a female called Charlie who runs a brilliant site.

All too often, in the media, we see the accounts of men who've had midlife crises and decided to adopt what they see as a 'female' persona. We rarely hear from the families or ftm. It's all so often about the men still.

I never see any accounts of middle aged women doing the same thing funnily enough.

And if you have Netflix, I'd recommend 'Afterlife'. There's a brilliantly written scene in series 2 towards the end (maybe 5 or 6) regarding some of the issues with gender ideology.

I'm nearly forty. When I was growing up, gender bending appearance was cool, men in make up, long hair, women being tough in doc martins and tattoos. What was progressive was to recognise that you could break free of stereotypes in appearance and also behaviour, think Billy Elliot or Million Dollar Baby. Now, the trans movement almost seems like a reversal of that. For example the NHS website on gender dysphoria including things like liking the 'wrong' sport meaning you might be in the 'wrong' body. To me and most of my colleagues in education this seems a backwards step. Reinforcing gender stereotypes. Narrow boxes that you must fit into or you 'should' be the opposite sex.
It asks you to swallow the idea that all men feel the same as each other, all women feel the same. That 'feeling' like a particular gender means anything. You also need to believe your personality and emotions are a separate thing to your physical body. That surgery and hormones mean you can literally 'change' sex implying surgery and hormones can actually make a 60 year old 40 years old again, rather than it just being a polite kindness, referring to someone as the thing they wish to appear to be - you must actually believe it is a reality. It's almost like a religious person insisting you not only respect their beliefs but actually join them in believing in God. It's a movement in which rational debate is shut down in the same way as Trump shuts down journalists who disagree with him, by shouting loudly and angrily and never actually answering logical questions with logical answers. It's a movement where people wanting to be kind are asked to take that to the nth degree by denying reality in order to not offend.

Yeah, some of us take a little longer than others to realise other women are not silly caricatures of femininity. Which is what you are directly implying with the non-binary 'I'm not like the other girls' BS.

Where on earth did you get that idea? And where did I say that I was AFAB? it's nothing to do with hating women, masculinity or femininity. Don't project your own issues onto me, thanks.

as a 'non binary' person, you think there is a binary presumably?
what does the binary consist of?