AIBU to feel confused and old about transgender issues.

[confusedandold]

I was born in 1976 so 43 years old. During school, I don't recall any children in my school having issues with their gender. There may have been some but none that I was away of. I had no experience of transgender people apart from a vague memory of seeing a man in women clothing walking up the road and being fascinated by it.

Transgender issues have never been at the forefront of my mind. I feel that I'm very accepting of other people's life choices and that people have a right to be happy in their lives whatever that means for them.

Lately, I feel completely confused by transgender issues. It has never been something that I'd given much thought to but I get completely an utterly confused by the terminology. Non-binary, cisgender etc this is all wording that I had never encountered before. Everyone seems to be talking about trans right and gender issues and I don't understand where this has suddenly come from. Is it that more people have issues around their gender? Is it fashionable to be gender-neutral? Is it just that people now feel more comfortable in expressing how they feel inside? Is there greater acceptance? I'm returning to the UK after 10 years abroad and this is a topic that was never really discussed when I left.

I guess I'm asking because I don't want to inadvertently offend anyone by using incorrect terminology. As shocking as this may sound but when I was at school mixed-race people were referred to as 'half-caste', even mixed-race people in my school referred to themselves in this way, now this is a huge no-no. Times change, language changes and it is so easy to offend while having no intention whatsoever of doing so.

as a 'non binary' person, you think there is a binary presumably?
what does the binary consist of?

Are you sealioning or genuinely curious? Are you just going to insult me by insinuating non-binary genders don't exist and therefore I shouldn't waste my time?

I'm not interested in discussing this unless you're willing to not spend it insulting me. I've said this before on this site, I'm just looking for respect, not quotes around non-binary like you think it's fake.

Loki
Thanks for explaining what non binary isn't. Could you tell us what it is as well? I have the same problem as DianasLasso in understanding what it is.

I’ve realised just reading this thread that what makes me most uncomfortable about trans women is that they are fetishising my oppression. It’s not that I’m worried about my safety in the toilets, I think there are genuine concerns re safety and dignity and a lot of concerns around the early medical transition of children but in reality it isn’t that.

It’s ‘how dare you pretend to be part of my oppressed group, how dare you pretend you have any understanding of what it is to grow up female. To be a woman. To be treated as female from birth. To live through periods and pregnancy or to not have them as a woman and to feel faulty. To have limits placed on you because of your genitalia. To have your sex used as a descriptor before your success eg female doctor. How dare you choose this and expect me to accept it’

It’s like identifying as having a disability or being part of a particular ethic minority group, saying you’re gay when you’ve had one homosexual crush and are currently in a heterosexual relationship and then expecting the oppressed group to accept you unquestionably.

You’re a gender non conforming male and that comes with its own unique difficulties but you are not and can never be a woman and why would you want to be? Call yourself Sarah, wear a skirt and make up. Live how you want but stop pretending you can ever be a woman. I won’t pretend I know what it’s like to be trans and I won’t talk for you. You stop pretending you know what it’s like to be a woman and stop talking for me.

Cross posted. I think DianasLasso expressed quite clearly and politely the problem many of us have with the concept of non binary. I'd really appreciate an answer to this.

I missed that post before. Give me a moment to get on my computer @DianasLasso

Well I'm 43 & I've worked with 4 trans colleagues & at least 3 trans patients in my current workplace plus a colleague's son is trans mtf so actually now her daughter.

Lots of my colleagues are gay, lesbian, queer etc etc.

But then Ive always lived in a large seaside town with an active LGBTQ+ community so none of this comes as a surprise to me really.

Brighton?

im asking a non binary person what the binary is- i would have thought its quite a straightforward question. 🤷🏼‍♀️
how is it insulting?

Why is it still LGBT when the T is just identity politics and nothing to do with sexual orientation? When the T stands for denying sex exists and trying to force lesbians to accept penis?

The cotton ceiling concept is terrifying. As is the level of abuse online.

Why does being pro women and children make me anti trans ?

I am pro gay marriage but am also pro my own heterosexual marriage.

Why are the TRAs so desperate to pick fights ?

When elite all-Male establishments will start accepting transmen as their own, then we can discuss the inclusion of penises in female spaces. We are not ready for that discussion.

@WooleyJ123, I fully support everyone's right to ID as whatever the hell they want, but dismissing the concerns of, and around, abused women and girls being in intimate surroundings with people with biologically male genitalia as transphobia is unhelpful to your cause.

I have supported women who have been subjected to appalling sexual and physical abuse by male partners. To have to share intimate space with women who share the same physical attributes as the men who abused them is likely to be triggering and to hinder their recovery.

I'm thinking of women and girls in refuges particularly, but also hospital wards, care homes and so on.

@DianasLasso

Loki can I ask you something?

All my life I've been interested in a range of things society codes as masculine (physical sciences, football, climbing, etc) and some of which society codes as feminine (needlework, dress design, to give a couple of examples). I am a woman (biology) but contingently so - my sex is only linked to my interests in a kind of accidental way. I've always felt society's attempt to shove me into rigid boxes because of my sex was something wrong with society, not me.

Now it's always tempting for GC feminists like me to see "non binary" as simply internalising society's boxes and sayin "I don't fit so there must be a third box spanning both masculine and feminine spaces for me to exist in."

But I presume this is not how you see it, so I wondered what differed between our life experiences that leads you to find "non binary" a useful descriptor for your own lived experience. I would be I interested because I find "non binary" to be the category I struggle to understand.

I don't really understand where you're finding people who are pushing a non-binary identity on you, to be honest - are people saying that to you? I'm sorry if they are, because that's really not the point of being non-binary or being transgender in general. It's a personal identity for me - if it was just a case of not fitting society's expectations of your gender, a lot more people would be classed as N-B.

A lot of my reasons are very personal and I can't honestly say any of them would convince you. They probably wouldn't, again, because they're specific to me personally. There's parts of my body I hate and want gone for no reason other than I hate them. I don't want to get too in-depth here because it's pretty personal and I don't owe anybody that much personal information regarding me. Some people do find that it's literally just a disagreement regarding gender and that's just as valid as somebody like me. There's no specific reason for being non-binary which is why I assume a lot of people hate it because they can't put it into a box - it isn't a box.

For me, it's nothing to do with hating gender roles. I don't know what else to tell you except that it's how my brain's wired and if I had a choice, I would just be able to flipflop between any kind of expression/body that I want regardless of anything else. It's why I identify so much with Loki, who's canonically genderfluid in comics just as himself - not like Thor, where there's a female Thor who appeared for a few comics (and now a movie) who's completely different from the original Thor. There's also plenty of instances of non-binary people/genderfluid people in mythology and various different cultures from the ones I personally understand - I won't speak on the ones I don't, obviously. Not my place.

I'm not sure what you mean by life experiences, though? I didn't have some horrendous traumatic incident that led to me deciding this was the path for me. I've struggled with my gender since I can remember and I don't understand why you're saying that my gender being non-binary means that I view something as being 'wrong' with me. It is a problem with society. Women and men should be able to freely present how they want, but that isn't mutually exclusive to non-binary genders existing.

Honestly, I've probably angered people/made more questions for you than helped at all because I'm not some kind of authority on being non-binary, nor am I very good at condensing my thoughts about myself on this topic into something else. It's one of the only neutral/positive things I can think about myself that I'm happy and content with identifying as non-binary. I wasn't bullied or peer-pressured into it, it's just how I've been since I was in secondary school. I can try to answer follow-up questions, but I won't be entertaining rude people or sealioning/asking fake inflammatory questions under the guise of 'I'm just curious'.

Everybody is non binary. Having a sparkly label doesn't make you special.

i dont see why you think 'what does the binary consist of' is rude, fake or inflammatory.
if your identity rests on being non-'it' then surely youve got a good notion of what 'it' is?

98% of all sexual assualts are carried out by men - yeah men, not trans women

What is the difference between a man and a transwoman, except the words 'I identify as a woman'?

At what point does someone who is in the high risk sex class of 'male' move into the low risk sex class of 'female'? Is it full GRS? Breast implants? Hormones? A dress, make up, long hair? A gold handbag or blush pink scarf? Or is it just the words 'I identify as a woman'?

What is a 'transwoman'?

Also, why do women's feelings have to be dictated by males? If a male walks into a female changing room and identifies as male, a woman is allowed to feel uncomfortable, anxious, and is allowed to ask him to leave. If a man walks into a female changing room and identifies as female, then that woman isn't allowed to feel uncomfortable or anxious and indeed is a bigot if she does feel those things? So the level of discomfort, anxiety etc that a woman is allowed to feel is entirely dictated by a male? Seems a bit misogynistic to me?

Thanks for your answer Loki.

No-one's pushing me to identify as non-binary.

I suspect we may be talking past one another slightly because the word "gender" now seems to be doing so much work - as a shorthand for "inner identity", in its traditional social sciences/feminist theory meaning of "culturally or socially sanctioned set of behaviours, occupations, interests and dress codes deemed appropriate to one sex or the other," (and quite possibly in other senses too).

With this in mind, I was interested by your I don't know what else to tell you except that it's how my brain's wired and if I had a choice, I would just be able to flipflop between any kind of expression/body that I want regardless of anything else.

Now I'm reading this partly as a statement of some level of bodily dysphoria (correct me if I'm wrong) but also as a level of discomfort with being confined to one narrow range of "gender expression". And it's this last bit I personally struggle to get my head round, because I default to reading this "gender expression" in the old-school social sciences sense of "culturally determined gender role" which I'm pretty sure is not what you mean. But I'm not sure I'm any closer to seeing what you do mean.

Are you insinuating all trans people are perverts?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that @Buccanarab and to suggest that they are is being disingenuous imo. But self ID gives sexually predatory cismen an easy way to get access to vulnerable women in spaces where they should be able to feel safe and comfortable and not be leered at when naked, in underwear etc.

Er, ‘cis’ men don’t need to pretend to get access to female spaces. They have been handed it by campaigners. Unisex toilets and unisex bathrooms - in the UK sense of where the showers are - are becoming more common because of a very vocal minority. So women have lost their right to a single sex space.

Are you insinuating all trans people are perverts?

Are you insinuating that all men are perverts due to the fact that they aren't allowed in female spaces?

My husband is a lovely man, but isn't allowed in the ladies changing rooms - are you insinuating that my husband is a pervert?! Or are you saying that my husband should be allowed in the ladies?

There appears to be a disproportionate number of young people where a degree of gender dysphoria is comorbid with ASD.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1750946719301540

This is a hugely complex topic and shouting TWAW without thinking through all the intersecting issues and rights is itself prejudiced approach.

And you sexism will make you fit in well on that board. How pathetic of you to try and bully me off of here, but I haven't posted anything disablist on Mumsnet.

Are you insinuating all trans people are perverts? Or are you just uncomfortable around people who don't fit your norms?

The irony being that most of us grew up in the 70's 80's and early 90's where androgynous women, effeminate men wearing makeup and many other forms of self expression were the norm.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gender-neutral-toilets-trans-safety-women-men-tory-peer-a9356581.html

Unisex bathrooms and changing rooms ^

Now I'm reading this partly as a statement of some level of bodily dysphoria (correct me if I'm wrong) but also as a level of discomfort with being confined to one narrow range of "gender expression". And it's this last bit I personally struggle to get my head round, because I default to reading this "gender expression" in the old-school social sciences sense of "culturally determined gender role" which I'm pretty sure is not what you mean. But I'm not sure I'm any closer to seeing what you do mean.

I never felt confined to one way of gender expression when I was being called my gender at birth. I've always expressed how I wanted to at the time - it's partly dysphoria, maybe. I've never been diagnosed, but even without that people are non-binary - it's definitely not something you HAVE to have.

Also, I use gender because that's what it is. It isn't an 'inner identity' to me so much as who I am. My gender is non-binary and fluid, I dislike being called the pronouns and words relating to my gender at birth which is precisely why I never mention it on here because I'm positive people would use those words against me as they have before.

I honestly don't expect anything to 'click' or for you to have an a-ha moment, because I didn't. It's been a very long journey of exploring what gender, personal expression and biological sex means to me personally and it's still ongoing. I've experienced more discrimination from anti-trans people than I ever did before I called myself this, so I certainly wouldn't be doing it if it were easier or gave me less grief in life.