AIBU to feel confused and old about transgender issues.

[confusedandold]

I was born in 1976 so 43 years old. During school, I don't recall any children in my school having issues with their gender. There may have been some but none that I was away of. I had no experience of transgender people apart from a vague memory of seeing a man in women clothing walking up the road and being fascinated by it.

Transgender issues have never been at the forefront of my mind. I feel that I'm very accepting of other people's life choices and that people have a right to be happy in their lives whatever that means for them.

Lately, I feel completely confused by transgender issues. It has never been something that I'd given much thought to but I get completely an utterly confused by the terminology. Non-binary, cisgender etc this is all wording that I had never encountered before. Everyone seems to be talking about trans right and gender issues and I don't understand where this has suddenly come from. Is it that more people have issues around their gender? Is it fashionable to be gender-neutral? Is it just that people now feel more comfortable in expressing how they feel inside? Is there greater acceptance? I'm returning to the UK after 10 years abroad and this is a topic that was never really discussed when I left.

I guess I'm asking because I don't want to inadvertently offend anyone by using incorrect terminology. As shocking as this may sound but when I was at school mixed-race people were referred to as 'half-caste', even mixed-race people in my school referred to themselves in this way, now this is a huge no-no. Times change, language changes and it is so easy to offend while having no intention whatsoever of doing so.

midgebabe
I was coping perfectly well when I could live without gender. The emphasis on gender is hurtful.
Absolutely blooming lutely
be who you are and ignore the people who want to put you in a box and stick a label on it
jump out of the box and burn the label
in the way the early feminists burned their bras

The notion that one can be born in the wrong body is basically saying there is something wrong with me. Which rationally I know is wrong. But I don't always react rationally

Absolutely. Women and girls have their bodies scrutinised pretty much from as soon as they hit puberty up to when they hit old age.

Too fat, too thin.
Boobs too small, too big, too saggy, lopsided.

Nipples too big, too small, too dark, too light.
Bum too big, too flat, too saggy.
Thunder thighs, saddle bags, chicken legs.
Too hairy, hair in the "wrong places", too dark, too light, too wiry.
Skin too pale, too dark, too spotty, too blemished, too wrinkly.
Too sexy, too plain

Its easy to see how this kind of judgement and pressure put onto young girls can cause some of them to try and deny their biological realities to escape it.

So what rights do trans people currently not have enshrined in law, that everyone else does have?

The right to be identified as the gender they wish to be in all areas, that means transwomen being able to have the same things available to them as women and same for transmen. But you knew I'd answer this and you were just baiting for me to say the above so you could pick it apart. So please go ahead as I'm sure you are about to tell me how I'm anti women.

midgebabe
I totally agree with you. The emphasis on gender is damaging to males and females. As a woman in her 50’s splitting the world into masculine and feminine is what feel like I’ve been battling against for most of my working life (no I won’t cover the phones when the secretary is off ask one of the more junior people who just happen to be male). On a recent thread some unenlightened people we having a dig because a poster said her DH was crying with stress (the man up sort of crap that dismisses men’s MH issues).
Stop forcing people into masculine and feminine stereotypes and let them be themselves. If that is what non binary means for you then I fully respect that. You are you and that is enough.

I don’t understand it either. I was born in the 50s. There didn’t seem any confusion about gender. I remember girls (myself included) who were called tomboys because of the way we dressed and acted. Just a phase that’s all. Now imo children’s minds are getting damaged by letting them believe they can become whatever gender they want. I might be old fashioned but I believe if you were born female, you’ll be female till the day you die, and the same for males.

I think it’s disgusting that males can compete in women’s sports just because they call themselves female, and then often win, making the whole thing farcical and unfair. Also allowing men in women’s prisons, That’s just two of many issues I have There’s loads more. The worlds gone truly mad.

@ListeningQuietly

Greyt not more, equal So men not "identifying as women"

• go to men's prisons
• stay out of women's spaces religious, sanitary, education, safety
• do men's sport
• compete against men in business and commerce

if "transmen" are happy to stick to that then there is no issue

if they want more than what other men and women have, there is an issue

You are purposely misunderstanding me to make you point. I clearly mean transwomen should have equal rights to women. Same as transmen.

To me, gender is a set of behaviours and expectations placed on us by society. So certain things are viewed as ‘male’ behaviours and others as ‘female’ behaviours. Those gender norms have been slotted over biological sex. Judgement follows if you deviate from those norms, so if men are seen crying in public it can be taken as weakness whereas women not crying can sometimes be viewed as coldness - women who’ve been victims of crime can be seen as less trustworthy if they don’t show the ‘appropriate’ response. Men taking charge in a meeting are perceived as ‘showing leadership’ where women doing the same can be labelled ‘abrasive.’

I loathe those gender norms. They hold women back and they’re damaging to the mental health of men - women are more likely to ask for help when they need it as it’s positively encouraged for women to be open about feelings and seek support.

Also @ListeningQuietly why did you use the " marks around transmen?

The right to be identified as the gender they wish to be in all areas, that means transwomen being able to have the same things available to them as women and same for transmen. But you knew I'd answer this and you were just baiting for me to say the above so you could pick it apart. So please go ahead as I'm sure you are about to tell me how I'm anti women.

Why is it a right to be recognised as something that you are objectively, categorically not? In what other arena of life does anyone have this right?

‘I remember girls (myself included) who were called tomboys because of the way we dressed and acted. Just a phase that’s all’

Or, you know, the rejection of prescriptive gender roles.

The right to be identified as the gender they wish to be inallareas, that means transwomen being able to have the same things available to them as women

Regardless of any other considerations?

Just so I understand exactly where you are coming from, there should be no question of accepting a fully intact male as a woman only on their say so, and giving them access to female spaces and services?

midgebabe

I know what you mean. I find it is really bothering me to be presented with forms that request my gender and demand me to tick woman, man or non-binary (local library). My philosophy was that I was generally happy to treat trans women as women (unless it impacted on other people adversely) and I was willing to go along with a distinction between woman (identity) and female (biology) in the same way that I am happy to accept that other people believe in souls.

I'm not happy to have to constantly categorise myself according to the tenets of a faith I don't have or to be categorised by it, every time I fill in a form. Why can't there simply a sex sectiom and a separate gender section with non-binary there?

It is presumptuous and dismissive of all the struggles and anguish I had as a teenager; having to categorise myself as binary or non-binary directly conflicts with my own philosophy that I am female and that's enough. That who I am is as valid in her femaleness as the next adult human female, even if I don't meet 20th century British expectations of womanhood. I have chosen to opt right out of gender for myself and that should be as worthy of respect as the next person's choice of pronoun.

Why isn't it?

no question of not accepting that should say...

What other group of people have the right to legally falsify their birth certificate? Trans people already have this right, if they are willing to go through the process of getting a GRC. So technically they already have more rights than most people. They want GRA reform to make it possible to legally falsify their birth certificate with no gatekeeping whatsoever.

To me, the only thing that makes me ‘feel’ female is my biology. It’s ovaries, womb and hormones. That and the gender pay gap, misogyny and the way the world views women. It’s not an internal feeling unless you count cramps. If you view yourself a different way that’s your choice and I respect it but don’t ‘cis’ me.

GreytExpectations

Very few rights are unfettered. Many rights intersect with the rights of other groups. Religious beliefs are a protected characteristic so if you allow for self identification that means people with male genitalia can enter female only spaces that may mean some Muslim and Jewish women feel they are effectively being denied access to facilities or services, whose rights prevail?

I'm not even going into the point that "woman" isn't a gender because we all know that the conflation of sex and gender was deliberate.

Woman = sex
Feminine = gender

You are purposely misunderstanding me to make you point. I clearly mean transwomen should have equal rights to women. Same as transmen.

Well they aren't women, so why should they have any of women's rights? Why should women lose their right to safe sex segregated spaces because you think human beings can change sex?

The right to be identified as the gender they wish to be in all areas, that means transwomen being able to have the same things available to them as women and same for transmen.

Again, you think it's fine for womens spaces and sports to be ruined because of a small subset of men who "feel like a woman?" Why do you think the rights of people to be identified as the gender they wish is more important than the rights of everybody else?
Tell me, do you think it's fine for white people to identify as black? For non-disabled people to identify as disabled? If you don't think either of those are fine, explain why that's any different than men identifying as women.

For non-disabled people to identify as disabled?

I mean, a lot of disability rights are based on self identification. You haven't had to be 'registered disabled' or anything for years. Largely whether you count as disabled is based on how you feel X impacts on your life.

To be honest, if the only thing young women are concerned with is their own "identity" and enforcing the use of particular pronouns, that means previous generations of feminists have done an amazing job. Silly me still being upset about sexual harassment and violence, lack of equal opportunities, women's health services being underfunded etc....etc...etc...Oh, and trying to keep access to public services and bathrooms as a Muslim woman.

This whole idea that males become women because that's how they identify is very hurtful for me.

Firstly , No one would ever accept me as a man unless I had severe surgery and hormonal treatment. Yet I do not believe there is actually anything wrong with me so why should I be fixed? Yet I do not gender identity as woman.

Secondly my first hand experience says that most women's rights are given because of their sex not their gender identity. I value the right to have a female changing space ( because the one thing that brought home to me that I could not wish / pretend being female away was rape )

And thirdly, where do the none binary people then go? Do they have to choose a gender? Forcing people to choose a gender is hurtful to many people

"Equal rights to women"
I will assume you meant
equal rights with women

no one has the right to another person

Well I believe transwomen are women so that will answer all of your leading questions.

The analogy about race and disability is laughable.

greyt that means transwomen being able to have the same things available to them as women

So you do not see TW as women, as you have described them as two separate groups? This is exactly what Wooley was doing earlier despite saying TWAW.

@midgebabe

"Equal rights to women" I will assume you meant equal rights with women

no one has the right to another person

No need to be pandantic